Side Effects explanation

[Wanderer]

I know Steve never explains the game balance philosophy behind his rulings, so could some more expert veteran Herophile kindly explain me why a Side Effect that always occurs the same way if power is used (such as an Aid that causes a character to become Enraged, an Attack Power that causes Stun loss, or an Armor that causes penalties to DCV and DEX rolls) must always have (because of the way modifiers to Side Effect are applied) Major severity to be worth points ?? I know Minor Side Effects might be theoretically abused by choosing very trivial effects, but it also seems to me that a 15 AP deleterious side effect that always occurs when you use the power should deserve -1/4, not +0. After all, a 15 AP side effect may mean 4 Stun each phase you use a Constant Power, or -3 to OCV as long as the power is in effect. Really is this only worth +0 ??

Only Costs End to activate, and Extra Time: Delayed Phase, which have roughly comparable impact, are -1/4, not +0.

[MitchellS]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

A minor side effect is a -1/4 limitation. Always occurs makes it x2 for -1/2. A -1/2 for a 15 active point limitation seems fair to me. Perhaps you have other modifiers in there too?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

There are 4 'modifiers' which make the Limitation worth 1/4 less, which could reduce it to a -0 Limitation:

 

* occurs when character performs a specific act

 

* does a predefined amount of damage

 

* only affects the environment

 

* only affects the recipient of the benefits of the power

 

 

My guesses on why these reduce the amount the Limitation is worth:

 

1) Specific act. If the side affect only occurs if you yell "It's clobberin' time!" before using the power, you have the option to use the power without the side effect. So I can see that being less of a Limitation.

 

2) Predefined damage. If the amount of damage it inflicts on you when you use the power is predefined, it allows you to intelligently plan for the consequences and, as a result, control the effects of the being hit with the Side Effect. For example, if normally you'd take 3d6 Stun, that means anywhere from 3-18 Stun and if you had only 10 Stun remaining, odds are you'd knock yourself out and leave yourself vulnerable if you used the power. If, however, the Side Effect had the Standard Effect (+0) modifier, then you'd know that each and every time you used it you'd take 9 Stun, and if you had 10 Stun left you'd know you'd be "safe" in using it. Again, it gives you a measure of control over the consequences.

 

3) Environmental effects. If all that happens is that you scorch the ground or crack the pavement on which you're standing when you use the power, rather than take damage yourself, I can see it being less of a Limitation.

 

4) Only affects those who benefit. Again, if the power grants some benefit and the Side Effect only hits the beneficiary, it gives more control over who/when/where/why the Side Effect comes into play -- moreso than "I use the power, I take damage" does.

 

In each case, it looks to me like a valid reason to decrease the amount the Limitation is worth.

 

...

 

What exactly is the Limitation or power write-up you're talking about? Knowing that would help no end!

[Wanderer]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

A minor side effect is a -1/4 limitation. Always occurs makes it x2 for -1/2. A -1/2 for a 15 active point limitation seems fair to me. Perhaps you have other modifiers in there too?

 

Since the Side Effect nature is pre-set at character creation, I would apply the +1/4 modifier for a fixed Side Effect. This brings value to +0, since according to 5er pp. 281-282 (where Steve directed me to), the x2 multiplier applies last. Mathematically it works, but I feel quite injust that because of the way modifiers apply (adders first, multiplier last), a 15 AP Limitation ends up worth +0.

[MitchellS]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

Since the Side Effect nature is pre-set at character creation' date=' I would apply the +1/4 modifier for a fixed Side Effect. This brings value to +0, since according to 5er pp. 281-282 (where Steve directed me to), the x2 multiplier applies last. Mathematically it works, but I feel quite injust that because of the way modifiers apply (adders first, multiplier last), a 15 AP Limitation ends up worth +0.[/quote']

Almost all side effects are pre-set at character creation [3d6 flash when roll failed, etc]. The only time the value is decreased is when it meets one of the 4 additional criteria: the examples are best seen above posted by Dr. Anomaly.

 

If you can give a more specific example of what you are attempting I might be able to give you a better answer. If a character takes 3d6 stun every time the power is used, then that is a -1/2 limitation. If the ground around the character takes 3d6 stun every time the power is used that is a -0 limitation.

[Wanderer]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

Almost all side effects are pre-set at character creation [3d6 flash when roll failed' date= etc]. The only time the value is decreased is when it meets one of the 4 additional criteria: the examples are best seen above posted by Dr. Anomaly.

 

If you can give a more specific example of what you are attempting I might be able to give you a better answer. If a character takes 3d6 stun every time the power is used, then that is a -1/2 limitation. If the ground around the character takes 3d6 stun every time the power is used that is a -0 limitation.

 

An Armor Power that may work in two different modes (in Hero terms, has a Variable Limitation): "Stealth" mode (Activation Roll 14-) and "Ultraheavy" mode (Visible plus Side Effect (-2 to DCV and DEX rolls). I check to see what Side Effect would be worth. The Side Effect would be 20 AP worth: Minor Side Effect (-1/4) (the equivalent of four DCV or DEX-based Skill levels). Side Effect always occurs in the same way (limitation is worth 1/4 less). Side Effect always occurs when Power is used (x2). According to 5er pp. 281-282, multiplier applies last. Result: Side Effect is worth +0. I look at it, and say "What the heck ??". It seems to me that a minor side effect that always occurs the same way each time power is used should be worth -1/4 minimum, not +0, and the Side Effect system is bugged.

 

Other similar Side Effects that I can think of on the fly that would have the same problem would be Flight that gives -3 to INT and PER rolls as long as it's used, Aid that would make user Enraged, or EB that causes Stun loss each blast. having to raise the bar to Major SE each time to make the limitation meaningful seems unfair.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

If you are a GM you can decide it acts differently.

 

But it is a case of closing the munchkinny loopholes more than anything else.

 

besides it doesnt really hurt to take disads just because you want to.

 

or even add enough mods to make it 30 points worth of disads.

 

like -20 pre, only in non-scary PRE attacks (-1) or somesuch.

or -2 to PRe Rolls would bring it up to 30 pts disads....

[Wanderer]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

Ok, it appears that additional inquiry with Steve was able to solve my issues. It seems I was mistaken in applying the "standard damage or effect" modifier to a Side Effect that always occurs when you use the power. To my impression, it was all fault of the rather misleading Side Effect writeup, that makes you think you have to apply the "standard damage" modifier to all cases where a Side Effect has a standard predefined effect.

 

Apparently, it is instead only meant to apply in those cases where a SE occurs as a consequence of a failed AR or RSR, not when a SE always occurs when you use the power.

 

Thanks to all for the additional advice, anyway.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Side Effects explanation

 

Ok' date=' it appears that additional inquiry with Steve was able to solve my issues.[/quote']

I'm glad it was cleared up to your satisfaction.