Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

[greymankle]

OK, I'm trying to create an Aikido master/ pacifist. He never hurts you, you just hurt yourself when you attack him. He's a very "one with nature, mystic, old wise one" type guy. Once again my grand ideas are limited by my fairly loose hold on HERO mechanics. Thus I turn to the boards, yet again

 

There are a couple of effects I'm trying to replicate here.

 

1. The harder you attack the more the damage shield hurts. "Use their own strength against them" The SFX is turning their punch back into them or some other martial move. Obviusly wont work for ranged attacks.

 

2. Aikido has a lot of block into takedown moves. Is there a way to link martial moves or abort to a takedown/disarm/take-away? I see this character as a very reactive fighter. Always let's the oppenent move first. I know I can use held actions, but that only works for the first attacker.

 

I know the potential abuse for aborting into an attack so I can understand if this is not allowed. But how about a damage shield, with the limitation only on a successful block? Then it comes back to figuring out a way to increase the DS for harder attacks.

 

This will be the characters schtick so I don't mind investing more points than usual. I just can't think of the proper way to spend them.

 

Thanks.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

OK, I'm trying to create an Aikido master/ pacifist. He never hurts you, you just hurt yourself when you attack him. He's a very "one with nature, mystic, old wise one" type guy. Once again my grand ideas are limited by my fairly loose hold on HERO mechanics. Thus I turn to the boards, yet again

 

There are a couple of effects I'm trying to replicate here.

 

1. The harder you attack the more the damage shield hurts. "Use their own strength against them" The SFX is turning their punch back into them or some other martial move. Obviusly wont work for ranged attacks.

 

2. Aikido has a lot of block into takedown moves. Is there a way to link martial moves or abort to a takedown/disarm/take-away? I see this character as a very reactive fighter. Always let's the oppenent move first. I know I can use held actions, but that only works for the first attacker.

 

I know the potential abuse for aborting into an attack so I can understand if this is not allowed. But how about a damage shield, with the limitation only on a successful block? Then it comes back to figuring out a way to increase the DS for harder attacks.

 

This will be the characters schtick so I don't mind investing more points than usual. I just can't think of the proper way to spend them.

 

Thanks.

 

There are a lot of ways to do this... the biggest concern is that "reactive attacks" i.e. "I get to hit you after defending in the same action" are very much game balance breakers.

 

With our Initiative system (not using the SPD Chart) it is actually much easier to simulate this type of combat with a simple "Block" in the first action and "Throw/takedown" in the second action. In fact... you might be able to buy something like... Extra SPD... only for second actions that are used after a successful block... or some such. Might be too ugly. I'm very leery of allowing limitations on SPD that could lead to things like, "Extra SPD, only to hit you with my world shaking finishing move!" which is what it would likely lead to.

 

Simplest... cleanest way (using our Speed Initiative rules)... Eight or Nine SPD, with all the block throw, legsweep, takedown maneuvers... with extra damage to the takedown maneuvers like "Only following successful block on first action" or some such.

 

For The Aikido Kid, then almost all first actions are "wait to block" and second actions are "torque wrist and face plant him in the mud!" or whatever.

 

Make sense?

[greymankle]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

I figured it would be game breaking I was hoping there would be a middle ground somewhere.

 

My only problem with the first action block , second action takedown is it's TOO clean. Any MA can do that. sure I can make him good at it but it doesn't have the same feel. The guy I'm thinking of can walk into a riot and just block/flip his way through all the thugs. Using MA moves he would have to have a huge amount of actions. I was hoping to use Damage Shield as a way to harm more then one attacker. Even with an 8 or 9 SPD you can still just use takedown on one guy at a time. I know I can't put Takedown into the DS but an AVLD DS with the armlock/ wrist twist SFX works for me.

 

I can just outright buy that but I would like to make it a little realistic and have it require a successful block and, if possible, put a further limitation on it that it can be blocked in turn. I know DS's can't usually be blocked but if another Aikido guy comes through his skill should be useful in fighting MY Aikido guy.

 

I don't want to go 8 or 9 SPD because then he's just another fast MA. I hope to make this guy work on just a 3 SPD. No second actions EVER. That's why I need to use the DS mechanic. But I'm not sure if I can do that.

 

Does anything I said make sense?

[Nevenall]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

OK, I'm trying to create an Aikido master/ pacifist. He never hurts you, you just hurt yourself when you attack him. He's a very "one with nature, mystic, old wise one" type guy. Once again my grand ideas are limited by my fairly loose hold on HERO mechanics. Thus I turn to the boards, yet again

 

There are a couple of effects I'm trying to replicate here.

 

1. The harder you attack the more the damage shield hurts. "Use their own strength against them" The SFX is turning their punch back into them or some other martial move. Obviusly wont work for ranged attacks.

 

2. Aikido has a lot of block into takedown moves. Is there a way to link martial moves or abort to a takedown/disarm/take-away? I see this character as a very reactive fighter. Always let's the oppenent move first. I know I can use held actions, but that only works for the first attacker.

 

I know the potential abuse for aborting into an attack so I can understand if this is not allowed. But how about a damage shield, with the limitation only on a successful block? Then it comes back to figuring out a way to increase the DS for harder attacks.

 

This will be the characters schtick so I don't mind investing more points than usual. I just can't think of the proper way to spend them.

 

Thanks.

 

So, whenever someone attacks this character in hand to hand they take damage porportional to the size of their attack, and they also get thrown to the ground?

 

So, buy as much damage shield as you can and take the Only Up Amount of Blocked Attack (-1/2 or maybe -1) So, they only take as much as they can deliver or as much DS as you have.

Then it's easy to add the Block requirement to the DS

Then I would link a sizable amount of Telekinesis to the damage shield with the limitation Only to Throw Attacker to the Ground (-1?).

I think SOMEthing like that would be the most legal build.

[tesuji]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

As an option, have you considered using TK with damage shield?

 

First off you probably avoid continuous, since TK is already constant. (theory)

 

But you probably need IPE because its not obvious beforehand that "your damage shield is up".

 

With TK you can IIRC perform combat maneuvers such as takedown and still be within SFX, although you might need to get some Gm permission thing going.

 

HEY, wait, is there anything legally incorrect about damage shield as an advantage applied to STRENGTH? STRENGTh after all, is an attack power, right?

 

I'll let other ponder that.

 

But after you apply damage shield, you need to apply a lim for "requires to hit roll" at about -1/2 iirc. This is iirc common for this kinda martial arts counter strike kind of thing.

 

you also probably want to apply a "not more than attack would do" lim, making the effective limit to the damage "your max" or "theirs" whichever is lower.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

.

 

1. The harder you attack the more the damage shield hurts. "Use their own strength against them" The SFX is turning their punch back into them or some other martial move. Obviusly wont work for ranged attacks.

 

2. Aikido has a lot of block into takedown moves. Is there a way to link martial moves or abort to a takedown/disarm/take-away? I see this character as a very reactive fighter. Always let's the oppenent move first. I know I can use held actions, but that only works for the first attacker.

 

Both of these could be modeled quite easily using naked advantages for martial manuvers (which is a stopsign efect and potentially unbalancing)

 

Right off the bat...

Trigger on Takedown, triggered on a sucessful block, trigger resets automaticlly, with a small limit on the advantage that the takedown is limited on Max DC to the Dc of the blocked attack.

Might buy extra DC with this as well, to better simulate the fact that its the attackers energy thats doing the damage. Then just buy lots of levels with block. Or PSL's with block, only to offset multiple block penalties.

Now your Aikidoka never has to attack.

Other good uses for this kind of structure for Aikido..

Trigger on Jointbreak/disable, triggered if someone trys to break loose from a grab.

And technically, I think you may be able to model a takedown Damage sheild the same way.

a lot of this is in UMA... If you don't have a copy, try and find one, its a very useful book.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Of course... all of this gets into the Damage Shield issue... which is that it creates a situation where the attack "always hits" because it is triggering off of being attacked. This is such a broken mechanic in the Hero System (where nothing should be absolute... there should be no guarantees) so that it becomes the ultimate munchkin build.

 

Now... if there were some option that said, "Each aikido respons attack (damage shield) required a "to hit" roll... then that might get around this issue. (Especially if there was the cumulative -2 for each attack following, like with Autofire.)

 

The other concern is that DS does NOT work if struck with weapons. The DS goes off agains the weapon (think baseball bat vs. electroshock field, smokes the bat, but the batter takes nothing) so the whole thing simply shuts off unless struck with an actual body part of the attacker.

 

So many "but then that means..." kind of issues stem from using Damage Shield. It is a common concept power that simply breaks the game design of Hero in many ways.

 

I'd be really, really leery of any "limited DS" builds, because while the limitations make sense... they would likely do little to limit the effectiveness of the power. I'd almost prefer a simple "8d6 DS, requires a Skill Roll (block)"'

 

All the rest is SFX for the most part.

 

Again... my philosophy is "keep it clean, and don't get too granular."

[tesuji]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

 

Of course... all of this gets into the Damage Shield issue... which is that it creates a situation where the attack "always hits" because it is triggering off of being attacked. This is such a broken mechanic in the Hero System (where nothing should be absolute... there should be no guarantees) so that it becomes the ultimate munchkin build.

thats why you add a requires to hit roll if you think automatic hit is innappropriate.

 

however, i have rarely seen simple damage damage shields become too powerful and abusive.

Now... if there were some option that said, "Each aikido respons attack (damage shield) required a "to hit" roll... then that might get around this issue. (Especially if there was the cumulative -2 for each attack following, like with Autofire.)

I'vs seen similar lims... maybe in the MA books.

The other concern is that DS does NOT work if struck with weapons. The DS goes off agains the weapon (think baseball bat vs. electroshock field, smokes the bat, but the batter takes nothing) so the whole thing simply shuts off unless struck with an actual body part of the attacker.

thats incorrect or at least, overstated. DS affects the item IF the Gm makes a ruling that it does. The default remains "hurt the attacker" at least as i read it, but the Gm is given latitude to instead hurt only the weapon or both weapon and attacker.

 

IMO, a counterstrike DS would be one of those cases where the SFX says "keep the default, hurt the attacker, and don't make it a special Gm exception at all.

 

Rules cite 5ER pg 254 3rd paragraph starting after "At the GM's option..."

[Fox1]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

If it's meant to be a 100% defense against mooks....

 

I'd go with Damage Shield, 8d6 (should be about the max a mook can do, I leave the point costing to you)). Limit: only up to the damage attacked by (-1/4). Must be aware of attack (-1/4), only vs. "low skilled" hand-to-hand attacks (-1/2)

 

To this link:

 

+35 PD, only vs. "low skilled" hand-to-hand attacks (-1/2), Must be aware of attack (-1/4), Linked to DS (-1/2).

 

-8" Knockback, only vs. "low skilled" hand-to-hand attacks (-1/2), Must be aware of attack (-1/4), Linked to DS (-1/2).

 

 

I leave it to you to define the upper level of "low skilled" HtH attacks. It should be based upon a min CV IMO.

 

This allows the walk through a sea of mooks without effort- no action even required. But makes him actually fight real opponents without the game breaking effects of Damage Shield getting in the way.

 

A little expensive, but being able to walk over agents without effort should be.

 

 

Side Note: I wouldn't let this into my game as a general rule.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

I would probably go with something like: HA; Continuous; Damage Shield; Double Knockback; Requires Skill Roll (Aikido Power, attack roll, or whatever). I say buy it as an HA with Continuous because that seems to be the intuitive way to do it, and other ways such as buying Damage Shield directly on your Strength would seem to me to break some metarules. The Double Knockback would IMO do well to simulate the take down (enemies with Breakfall may well be able to roll out of it, etc.); I believe you can choose to apply Knockback in any direction that seems reasonable, and given the SFX of the ability a direction more in line with the target's own momentum (or the direction of their attack) is more appropriate than straight away from you.

 

Now I would let you apply this Power when you choose to Block, Grab, or perform other Martial Maneuvers such as Martial Throw. I would even let you Link it to one or more of these maneuvers for a -1/4. However, others--such as your GM, if applicable--may view things differently.

 

Another interesting idea might be Absorption that only applies vs. the attacker and the attack that is absorbed, but this would normally require that you actually be hit for it to be effective, so having it work even when your Block is successful would definitely require specific GM permission.

 

Consider also Combat Luck to complement these abilities. It might even be Linked, so that you are protected only so long as you manage to, "foil," the attack. [EDIT: Or even Desolidification, though that would make your other abilities pretty expensive. It could be appropriate, though, for a semi-mystical ability to just not be where the attack lands. The kind of attack that would affect you would probably be something like Area of Effect attacks.]

[Dauntless]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

First off, let me say that this is just commentary on relating the power conception with Aikido as a martial art/way of life.

 

True aikido is supposed to be non-violent. To harm your opponent is to harm yourself. When you hear talk of a martial art like Aikido using an opponents own force against him, that's not quite true. Aikido is not about so much about the redirection of force as the redirection of intention. If one throws a punch at a master Shihan, he doesn't redirect the blow back, rather he 'absorbs' the blow so that it harms neither person.

 

Aikido is the ultimate expression of non-violence. Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of Aikido or O-sensei) developed on the principles ai nuke (mutual preservation as opposed to ai uchi, or mutual destruction) and Katsujinken (the sword that saves life as opposed to Satsujinken, the sword that takes life).

 

Perhaps using Tai Chi or Bagua might be better basis as the foundation of this mystic master if you wish him to do damage. In Tai Chi it is said, "When pulled push, when pushed pull". There is no philosophical reservation in Tai Chi to harm an opponent if necessary. But since he's supposed to be a pacifist, I don't think this would be the right approach either.

 

Perhaps a better way to model this might be a form of intangibility only versus physical attacks that requires a skill activation roll. This way, no one can harm him, and he's not harming anyone else either. However, using this method, you can't trap, throw, or disarm anyone either. Perhaps an entanglement damage shield could be used to simulate traps and throws. I'd also suggest linking a Transfer STR to Entangle to represent that the more you struggle, the more immobilized you become (Aborption might work too) .

 

I'd also look at some mental powers too. When you read about opponents who've encountered master martial artists, one of the things they often mention is a sort of unbearable heaviness as if it was almost impossible for them to attack. Almost as if they were frozen in trying to attack, because it was like trying to attack the universe.

 

Morihei Ueshiba, if only half of the 'powers' attributed to him are real would have made him a superhero. What powers did he display?

 

1. Damage Resistance- Sadaharu Oh, Japan's Babe Ruth once swung a baseball bat at a bokken (a wooden sword) that Ueshiba held upright with his hand. Ueshiba was in his 70's, and Sadaharu was in his prime. When Sadaharu said he hit the bokken, it felt like he hit a 200 yr old oak tree. He said he didn't even make it vibrate.

 

2. Missle Reflection/Teleportation- Ueshiba once made a bet that he could dodge a bullet. Before witnesses, one second he was at the end of a firing range, and the next he was behind the shooter tapping his shoulder. Other instances students said that one minute Ueshiba would be in one place, and a split second later, would be somewhere else.

 

3. Danger Sense- He couldn't be surprised. Like Inspector Clouseau telling Kato to ambush him at any time, Ueshiba ordered his Uchi Desshi (live in students) to do the same. They tried ambushing him in his sleep, or while he was eating, but they never surprised him.

 

4. Precognition- Ueshiba said that when he fought in Manchuria in the early 1900's, he could actually see bullets as rays of lights. He was therefore able to dodge bullets by simply avoiding touching the lights

 

5. Mind Control/Presence Attack- Some masters tried to test Ueshiba's skill, and they said they found it impossible to even attempt to strike him. They just stood there transfixed, unable to even bring themselves to try to hit him.

[greymankle]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Hmmm, Thanks for all the ideas. I have a ton of ideas. But of course all great ideas only make it as far as the Gm involved. Based on what RDU Neil was saying I think using a DS for this wont be able to happen.

 

I kinda like AmadanNaBriona's idea using everything as martial moves with triggers. How much of an advantage in a Naked Power Advantage? I just have Sidekick here with me. I could probably borrow UMA once I get back to the states but right now thats out.

 

The three main powers for this guy to really serve as a mystic defense master would be:

 

1. DS or takedown trigger whatever the Gm will allow. w/ crazy levels of block

 

2. Missile Reflection back to attacker only.

 

3. De-solid only to prevent damge from AoE attacks. must be aware of attack. Kind of an improved Evasion if anyone out there plays 3rd Ed. The MA finds the "soft" spot in the explosion to minize damage.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

If no one beats me to it, I can probably write up a couple of naked advantge powers for you to mess around with.

But not till tomorrow.

I've been halfway on the boards all freaaking day, and should really get off to bed.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Based on what RDU Neil was saying I think using a DS for this wont be able to happen.

 

I'm not saying don't build the character with Damage Shield... just that I'm very, very leery of how such a build would screw up balance, so I might require a complete rebuild if actual play proves to be bah-roken!

 

Same with the Naked Advantage concept. Also one of the more bah-roken concepts in the game. (Violates the whole principal of "a power with an advantage is a completely new power.")

 

In the end, though. All that matters is whether the character works in play in a balanced fashion. Points and build are just the initial metric for this. Play style and group dynamics have much more to do with a successful character than anything else.

 

I'll be looking to hear from you, 48 hours out.

[Fox1]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

I'm not saying don't build the character with Damage Shield... just that I'm very' date=' very leery of how such a build would screw up balance, so I might require a complete rebuild if actual play proves to be bah-roken![/quote']

 

I agree with RDU Neil here, which is why my suggestion had the limits on it that it did.

 

If it breaks, at least it would only break at the mook level.

[Inu]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

One option is to not buy any special powers at all. A 'block into throw' move (probably more appropriate for Aikido than takedown, if my experience is correct) can simply be interpreted as holding one's action, then throwing when the other guy charges. Heck, you can even use Acting to make it look like you're blocking - then when the other guy shifts all his levels into OCV to attack you, you go 'oh dear, but I'm actually throwing/disarming/punching you into the moon. You should have bought up your Analyse Style skill.'

 

This only works on one guy a turn, of course, unless you sweep your action.

 

So if you plan to be fighting lots of guys, I suggest mucho DCV levels and some combat luck.

[greymankle]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Well I've got 2 hours to kill I wish I could check the Hero Boards. -spies public computer lab- SCORE!

 

Anyway, I have no problem with total rebuilds. And I understand where RDU Neil is coming from. Would an activation roll serve as a balancing factor? You wouldn't be able to add in the -2 per attack but at least it isn't absolute.

 

Fox1: the only issue I have with your idea is the glass ceiling between mooks and masters. Yes this power will be heinous against mooks but it needs to have a little use vs. masters. Perhaps I didn't explain that well enough. This will be the characters only "attack" power. Unless you count missile reflection. Pys Lim:will not attack, Common/Strong

 

I can understand the potential munchkin-ness but I guess it is something that has to be seen in play. Does one potentionaly broken power break the character if no normal powers support it? Yes this will not be a rounded character, definately a one trick pony/ genre character. Just a fun concept character/ "would this work"

 

Anyway, back to waiting 1 hour 53 min left

[Fox1]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Yes this will not be a rounded character' date=' definately a one trick pony/ genre character. Just a fun concept character/ "would this work"[/quote']

 

Mechanically? Sure it will work. Lots of bad ideas work in HERO.

 

In practical terms? It works ok for a NPC "Master" type who's supposed to be unbeatable by anyone, but for some reason never actually does anything.

 

Beyond that, I really think the concept is... 'poor' is the lightest word I can think of.

[tesuji]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Well, in terms of actual use...

 

Back during the days of HERO4, one of the champions games i ran had a character named... wait for it... "Akido" as a PC played by one of my better if not most imaginative guys.

 

He was indeed the stereotypical KK-Miagi type and he did have an akido damage shield as one of his powers. he also had more straight forward martial arts but only iirc a defensive strike as his straight out attack and he did do more damage with the "counter attack" damage shield.

 

IIRC it was a high dice HA damage shield, invisible, with 0 end and the lims "only if attack was blocked" and "requires a successful to-hit roll" (at -1/2 each) and IIRC (not totally sure) a "no more than the attack itself could have caused" probably at no more than -1/4.

 

In practice over about two years (unless i am misrecalling and he was in two games... as this player did recycle characters... in which case its 3-4 years) it did not prove unbalancing. I do recall one particularly effective hospital fight scene where multiple melee prone thugs got handed their behinds quite well, but they were supposed to, as it was a highlight scene, with adversaries chosen to spotlight his special thingy..

 

Now, were i to want to do it again today, and to expand it to cover trips and sweeps and such, i might try, as i stated earlier, to base it off strength or TK, not HA.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

One option is to not buy any special powers at all. A 'block into throw' move (probably more appropriate for Aikido than takedown, if my experience is correct) can simply be interpreted as holding one's action, then throwing when the other guy charges. Heck, you can even use Acting to make it look like you're blocking - then when the other guy shifts all his levels into OCV to attack you, you go 'oh dear, but I'm actually throwing/disarming/punching you into the moon. You should have bought up your Analyse Style skill.'

 

This only works on one guy a turn, of course, unless you sweep your action.

 

So if you plan to be fighting lots of guys, I suggest mucho DCV levels and some combat luck.

Nice! Put Skills to use. I'm all for that! Maybe even throw some Presence Attacks in to compliment it! Rep!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

One option is to not buy any special powers at all. A 'block into throw' move (probably more appropriate for Aikido than takedown, if my experience is correct) can simply be interpreted as holding one's action, then throwing when the other guy charges. Heck, you can even use Acting to make it look like you're blocking - then when the other guy shifts all his levels into OCV to attack you, you go 'oh dear, but I'm actually throwing/disarming/punching you into the moon. You should have bought up your Analyse Style skill.'

 

This only works on one guy a turn, of course, unless you sweep your action.

 

So if you plan to be fighting lots of guys, I suggest mucho DCV levels and some combat luck.

 

Note that is what I suggested at the beginning of the thread, but greymankle didn't want to go that way. The character would likely have this abilily/martial maneuver set AS WELL as the super-flippy damage shield. Likely would have a number of skills and powers that would represent the same ability... but in a number of different situations. vs. multiple mooks... vs. one skilled opponent... vs. multiple large opponents... vs. one massively large opponent, etc.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

I don't have UMA handy, but is there a defensive throw move already built that does something like this? Maybe you could build a manuever with the Block base and add Knockdown or Throw to it?

[greymankle]

Re: Aikido as a Damage Shield/ Abortable Attacks?

 

Note that is what I suggested at the beginning of the thread' date=' but greymankle didn't want to go that way. The character would likely have this abilily/martial maneuver set AS WELL as the super-flippy damage shield. Likely would have a number of skills and powers that would represent the same ability... but in a number of different situations. vs. multiple mooks... vs. one skilled opponent... vs. multiple large opponents... vs. one massively large opponent, etc.[/quote']

 

I guess I am just being a picky Bee-tch. Oh well. Originally I wanted the character to just have the DS but I kind of agree with Fox1, that it wouldn't work as a PC well.

 

So I'll have to add in all the block/takedown moves and give him a high SPD for multiple actions, and a small, non-persistant TK DS for fun. MA's are fairly cheap anyway so it should all work out. I'll just tell the story with actions not stats.

 

Luckily our game is full of Narr-types and Sim-types so I won't have to deal with those pesky gamist-types. :wink:

 

I'm a gamist through and through