Package Deal Critiques

[Guest Black Lotus]

Here's a link to my unofficial Super Mutant Racial Package Deal, from the post-nuclear Fallout campaign setting I am building. What do you think? Ideas? Suggestions?

 

Super Mutant Package Deal

 

(Pip-Boy 2000 is another of my online aliases. )

 

(I wonder why I now have only 1 post...? I swear I had like... 10 before.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I usually just consider, "racial," Characteristics to be, "bought as Powers," and thus ignore Characteristic Maxima. It effectively means your Characteristic Maxima are changed by the same amount as the actual value is modified by the package. It just seems simpler and less arbitrary. You don't have to do that, of course. However, some of the maxima seem a little extreme, such as the 12 Int and 3 Spd. It seems that at least those should be worth something.

 

Otherwise, it looks cool.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

(I wonder why I now have only 1 post...? I swear I had like... 10 before.)

A little while back they changed the way the script that tallies posts works so that posts to the Non-Gaming Discussion forum no longer count towards your post total. Their reasoning was that since this is a gaming discussion forum, posts made to the non-gaming part shouldn't count as part of your post total. Given that a lot of the weight given to a post by the readers of the post is often tied to the poster's post count, a number of people agreed that this was a good move -- so that posts made in the non-gaming forum don't give "undue weight" to the posts a member makes in the gaming forums.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

Oh. I forgot to add: nice avatar, Black Lotus!

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

Thanks, I like it too~. As for post count, I'm not one to care much about post count anywho. I'm a member of too many boards. Been there, done that, got the scars.

 

To get back to it, I change the maxima for a very good reason: a Super Mutant pays regular price for more STR past 20, and double price to bring a few other traits TO 20. I couldn't see any other way to do this aside from making a separate Maxima. After all, a Large mutant should be able to have more than 20 STR at normal cost... while he can never get SPD 4 or the like.

 

Is there an alternate way to simulate this?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

OHHH.

 

Yeah, you're right. Bought as powers... so in this case, +10 STR would mean they could have a total of 30 STR for normal cost....

 

What bothers me is giving them, say, Intelligence -9. That would put them at 1 INT to begin with, and give them a Maxima of 11 INT... which is fine, but it seems odd to start every Super Mutant at 1 INT, they should have at LEAST 3, yet they should never get past 10 without paying double, believe me.

 

So what about REDUCED characteristics?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

OHHH.

 

Yeah, you're right. Bought as powers... so in this case, +10 STR would mean they could have a total of 30 STR for normal cost....

 

What bothers me is giving them, say, Intelligence -9. That would put them at 1 INT to begin with, and give them a Maxima of 11 INT... which is fine, but it seems odd to start every Super Mutant at 1 INT, they should have at LEAST 3, yet they should never get past 10 without paying double, believe me.

 

So what about REDUCED characteristics?

I don't know. You used to be able to reduce Characteristic Maxima at half the value it costed to sell back the value (although the Age Disadvantage never matched this point-wise, which always annoyed me greatly). I'd probably just change it if it isn't a huge difference. 1-3 points seems reasonable to me (EDIT: Oh, except maybe for Spd; it is so expensive and useful I'd probably consider balancing even a difference of 1 there). You could also try to balance it by--for example--overall increases in maxima of the same number of points (either value or Character Point-wise, with the latter probably making more sense) as overall decreases.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I'm not a fan of the Characteristic Maxima concept, though I understand it's place. In my opinion, if one is used at all, all character use the same Maxima. Otherwise it's best to just not use one. Otherwise you get character getting "free" points by taking Age so they don't spend any extra points buying up INT and EGO when they weren't going to buy things like STR and CON that much anyway. Same thing would happen with an altered Super Mutant Maxima. Not gonna play the smart guy and don't need a SPD over 3? Play the Super Mutant and get some free point to buy your STR over 20. In these cases, it's generally best and most fair for the GM to simply deny certain concepts from buying certain stats to such a level (unless they have a really good reason to, but even that might get denied.. no one wants a group full of Super Mutants with the brains of brilliant scientists transfered into them... well, few people do).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

Well, Fallout HERO (tentative and unofficial name there) needs to have a ceiling on characteristics. It's as gritty as it gets, at 75 Base Points and 75 points from Disadvantages. I can't have people buying STR up to 40 for only 30 Character Points. I believe there is a true need for a NC Maxima in this case. I know "Super Mutant" is a misleading term, but if you're familiar with Fallout, you'd know it's post-apocalyptic and as gritty as Cyberpunk.

 

It's true that people might try to use varying NC Maxima to min-max. Consider this, though: Super Mutants have some considerable disadvantages outside of pure stats, such as prejudice (and in some cases, outright hostility). They ARE supposed to be bruisers and bullies -- that's what the stats indicate, and it's how they are supposed to act -- so as long as someone can come up with a nice character concept, I think it's OK to work with an altered (and balanced as to which characteristic ceilings I increased and which I decreased) NC Maxima. Also note that they'd have to pay from 20 -- 30 Character Points to get SPD 4, even with a great DEX.

 

And some packages won't even offer much -- if any -- advantage at all. The upcoming Ghoul package will probably get you EXTRA chareacter points for taking it; I can't tell yet. But, they're slow, ugly (probably negative COM, so that evens out), weak, and have little endurance.

 

I think the altered NCM will work well in this case, although for many other games and genres it would not. But please, if you have any suggestions, feel free to give them to me. If I can find a good way NOT to alter the NCM for these package deals, that'd be GREAT.

 

(The link again: Super Mutant Package Deal

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I'm not a fan of the Characteristic Maxima concept' date=' though I understand it's place. In my opinion, if one is used at all, all character use the same Maxima. Otherwise it's best to just not use one. Otherwise you get character getting "free" points by taking Age so they don't spend any extra points buying up INT and EGO when they weren't going to buy things like STR and CON that much anyway. Same thing would happen with an altered Super Mutant Maxima. Not gonna play the smart guy and don't need a SPD over 3? Play the Super Mutant and get some free point to buy your STR over 20. In these cases, it's generally best and most fair for the GM to simply deny certain concepts from buying certain stats to such a level (unless they have a really good reason to, but even that might get denied.. no one wants a group full of Super Mutants with the brains of brilliant scientists transfered into them... well, few people do).[/quote']

I know. I feel the same way for the most part. I think Age should actually modify the values of your Characteristics, just like a, "racial," package does (and in the same way I mentioned above effectively change your Maxima). It is also why I suggested balancing the maxima changes, though this isn't a lot different from just giving/taking CPs for them. I myself tend to leave NCM identical for all characters (except, as I say, for effective changes due to racial packages).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I know. I feel the same way for the most part. I think Age should actually modify the values of your Characteristics' date=' just like a, "racial," package does (and in the same way I mentioned above [i']effectively[/i] change your Maxima). It is also why I suggested balancing the maxima changes, though this isn't a lot different from just giving/taking CPs for them. I myself tend to leave NCM identical for all characters (except, as I say, for effective changes due to racial packages).

 

I did balance them. I know SPD for Super Mutant is capped at 3, but if you'll notice, the maximum for PD, ED, and END went up considerably. 1 SPD is worth 10 points. That's -10. 2 PD and 3 ED are worth 5 points. That's +5. And 10 END is worth 5 points. That's +10. So 10 + (-10) = 0, and balanced.

 

With the primaries, you have +6 STR Maxima, +2 BODY Maxima, and +2 CON Maxima. That's +14. You have -10 to INT Maxima... and... well, I forget now, ha ha, but it pretty much balances out, point-buy wise.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I did balance them. I know SPD for Super Mutant is capped at 3, but if you'll notice, the maximum for PD, ED, and END went up considerably. 1 SPD is worth 10 points. That's -10. 2 PD and 3 ED are worth 5 points. That's +5. And 10 END is worth 5 points. That's +10. So 10 + (-10) = 0, and balanced.

 

With the primaries, you have +6 STR Maxima, +2 BODY Maxima, and +2 CON Maxima. That's +14. You have -10 to INT Maxima... and... well, I forget now, ha ha, but it pretty much balances out, point-buy wise.

Ah. I see. I was basically looking at the modifications after the value modifications from the package itself (since I come at racial package Characterstics from a Characteristics-bought-as-Powers POV). That would actually mean, for example, that Strength would have a reduced maxima (30 to 26 would be -4, or if you want to see it as it really is, the maxima is reduced from 20 to 16, and the final value of the Characteristic is 10 higher than it is bought due to a Power).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

Yes, my method does alter the Maxima, but it does it as if it is a 50/ 50 trade. So if I make SPD with a 3 Maxima, I have to increase the maxima of another (or more than one) figured characteristic by 10 points' worth to make up the deficit.

 

That's why I like doing it this way: Even though you start out with 20 STR as a Super Mutant, you can only increase it to 26. So the Maxima and the +STR from the package are a little different, meaning they don't come from Powers but from just... well, from the package itself. Your method works fine, but not if you consider that I want INT for the Super Mutant to cap at 10 instead of 20. Starting with 1 INT would be a little silly. ~.0

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

A little while back they changed the way the script that tallies posts works so that posts to the Non-Gaming Discussion forum no longer count towards your post total. Their reasoning was that since this is a gaming discussion forum' date=' posts made to the [i']non-gaming[/i] part shouldn't count as part of your post total. Given that a lot of the weight given to a post by the readers of the post is often tied to the poster's post count, a number of people agreed that this was a good move -- so that posts made in the non-gaming forum don't give "undue weight" to the posts a member makes in the gaming forums.

 

 

What?! Man, when I announced that I was back, over in NGD, and I asked what I had missed, nobody said nuthin' about no NGD not counting towards posts. Man, am I out of the loop!

[mytrustyd20]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

I love it! I've been doing some work on doing some Fallout conversion also...as well as some playing...and your Super Mutant is much better than mine. Do you have Deathclaw and Ghoul yet?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Package Deal Critiques

 

Ghoul is next on the list. I will be making it all into a professionally-done PDF for free download by fans; if you want to assist in any way, feel free to IM or email me.

 

Ghoul is going to be a tough one to do. I'm working on the race packages sporadically, because they're hardest to do. The weapons (and additional new weapons) will also be difficult.