Another firearm rules thread

[MadCow]

Hi, I'm new here after having recently gotten a copy FRED and Dark Champions. Anyway, like many of other posters before me, I'm trying to re-work some of the firearms rules into a more gritty version suitable for my style of campaign.

 

 

Firstly, damage. Dark Champions suggests doubling Body damage which is rather simple and elegant, but I was thinking of making two types of Killing Damage.

 

The first is concussive killing damage which is basically what is laid out in the rules - STUN 1d6-1 (or 3 as avg), roll damage as normal. Damage from maces, sledgehammers and especially powerful energy weapons would fall under this category.

 

The second that I want to add is puncturing killing damage, which does "STUN 1/2d6-1 (or 1 as avg)" and "doubles BODY damage after Defense". This would cover damage from ballistic weapons (e.g. guns) and slashing weapons (e.g. swords).

 

The idea is to keep both types of killing damage equal in terms of points - do the effects seem balanced to you?

 

 

Secondly, Double-Tapping. In Dark Champions, Double Tap is shown built as a Power that gives 2 shots of Autofire. However, I'm thinking that it should be something like a Skill because anyone can double tap, but their effectiveness is reduced if they aren't trained in it.

 

So it can be some sort of Weapon Familiarity, giving -3 OCV if unfamiliar. However it seems a bit too cheap at 2 points per category. So instead of WF I'm thinking that Double Tap is a special kind of PSL instead, so it takes 6 points per category to buy off the -3 penalty (or 9 points for all weapons). What do you think of this?

 

 

Thanks in advance for any comments and critique.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

There is already a rapid fire manaouvre you could use?

 

The 'advantage' of buying double tap as a limited autofire 'skill' is that it is easier to hit and there are fewer peenalties, but I am not keen on naked advantages, so I'd go with rapid fire, rapid attack (skill) and psl/csls probably.

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Third, recoil. Again Dark Champions provides some rules but I want to add a bit more variation by adding the following to firearms:

 

1) Increased Recoil (thinking maybe -1/4 or -1/2 limitation): For autofire against single target, increase margin of success requirements of additional hits by 1. Therefore for every 3 points better than required roll, an additional hit is scored (instead of 2). For autofire against multiple targets, increase the total OCV penalty by 1. e.g. Autofire into 4 hexes results in -5 OCV penalty.

 

2) Reduced Recoil (should be expensive, perhaps +1 advantage?): For autofire against single target, reduce margin of success requirements of additional hits by 1. Therefore every point counts as 1 additional hit. For autofire against multiple targets, reduce total OCV penalty by 1. e.g. Autofire into 4 hexes results in -3 OCV penalty.

 

 

Weapons like the SAW heavy machine gun or a double-barrelled shotgun would receive the Increased Recoil limitation, whereas only futuristic weapons like Gauss Rifles from Traveller would receive the Reduced Recoil advantage.

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

There is already a rapid fire manaouvre you could use?

 

The 'advantage' of buying double tap as a limited autofire 'skill' is that it is easier to hit and there are fewer peenalties, but I am not keen on naked advantages, so I'd go with rapid fire, rapid attack (skill) and psl/csls probably.

 

Hmm, good point, I didn't think of Rapid Fire as a form of Double Tap.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Firstly, damage. Dark Champions suggests doubling Body damage which is rather simple and elegant, but I was thinking of making two types of Killing Damage.

 

The first is concussive killing damage which is basically what is laid out in the rules - STUN 1d6-1 (or 3 as avg), roll damage as normal. Damage from maces, sledgehammers and especially powerful energy weapons would fall under this category.

 

The second that I want to add is puncturing killing damage, which does "STUN 1/2d6-1 (or 1 as avg)" and "doubles BODY damage after Defense". This would cover damage from ballistic weapons (e.g. guns) and slashing weapons (e.g. swords).

 

The idea is to keep both types of killing damage equal in terms of points - do the effects seem balanced to you?

 

 

 

A noble ideal, but the answer depends on current defences and so on: if you get only a point or two through on average, doubling won't make the game that much more deadly. If you get 5 or 6 through, it certainly will.

 

Personally I'd be inclined to simply say headshot Body multiplier = 3 (or 4 if you want lots of death) and vitals multiplier = 2 (...or 3) and a disabling hit is an automatic kill.

 

Most shots will do normal damage but hits to vital orgams kill. Seems realistic and it is only a relatively minor change to make.

 

The other good way to deal with different types of damage is to build dfences more carefully: a ballistic jacket may stop a 6DC RKA from a bullet but not a 6DC HKA from an axe.

 

A motorcycle helmet may prevent the 6DC sledgehammer staving your skull in but is ineffective against the 6DC RKA bullet...

 

Eaxmples: depending on how common the attack is the game each of the following is worth between -1 and -2:

 

Only effective v bullets

Only effective v low velocity blunt attacks

Only effective against low velocity cutting attacks (swords and axes)

Only effective against low velocity piercing attacks (stillettos and rapiers)

Only effective against medium velocity piercing attacks

 

...and don't forget you don't have to buy resistant defences: non resistant pd/ed can be part of a focus too.

 

Built your defences carefully, and it can transform a game.

 

The other thing is apply substantial PER penalties for helmets to encourage PCs and major villains not to wear them!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Third, recoil. Again Dark Champions provides some rules but I want to add a bit more variation by adding the following to firearms:

 

1) Increased Recoil (thinking maybe -1/4 or -1/2 limitation): For autofire against single target, increase margin of success requirements of additional hits by 1. Therefore for every 3 points better than required roll, an additional hit is scored (instead of 2). For autofire against multiple targets, increase the total OCV penalty by 1. e.g. Autofire into 4 hexes results in -5 OCV penalty.

 

2) Reduced Recoil (should be expensive, perhaps +1 advantage?): For autofire against single target, reduce margin of success requirements of additional hits by 1. Therefore every point counts as 1 additional hit. For autofire against multiple targets, reduce total OCV penalty by 1. e.g. Autofire into 4 hexes results in -3 OCV penalty.

 

 

Weapons like the SAW heavy machine gun or a double-barrelled shotgun would receive the Increased Recoil limitation, whereas only futuristic weapons like Gauss Rifles from Traveller would receive the Reduced Recoil advantage.

 

How about a recoil modifier? Only applies on multiple attacks: every attack after the first takes the recoil penalty, so a gun with a recoil penalty of 0 would hit on an autofire attack once for every 2 points hit by. If it had a penalty of -1 it would hit once for every 3 points the roll is made by and so on. Some guns just are not worth firing until the magazine is empty.

 

You could also consider PSLs to counter that: managing recoil skill.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

i'd never get the piercing damage nomarlly, i'd rather have the high stun multiplyer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

...whereas I am not keen on the whole stun multiplier mechanic. Very amusing if you are not on the receiving end: far to arbitrary for my tastes. Moreover I don't think it is particularly representative of the way real world killing attacks work: a good hit is more likely to kill than KO.

 

Still, different strokes...

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

i like using hit locations to avoid the stun lotto, but if you're having a stun lotto, might as well buy a ticket and play!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

i like using hit locations to avoid the stun lotto' date=' but if you're having a stun lotto, might as well buy a ticket and play![/quote']

 

 

...and you win...which means you are unconscious. Sit it out until PS12.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

eh, you win some you lose some

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

eh' date=' you win some you lose some[/quote']

 

yep, I always get stunned, but rarely take damage.

 

Honestly though, a good enough killing hit will still kill you. You wont live long enough to feel the stun. But if it doesn't kill you it is very very likely that you will go unconcious.

 

Besides, bleeding to death from a major attack is even more common than dieing outright. And bleeding to death while unconcious is even more common.

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Besides' date=' bleeding to death from a major attack is even more common than dieing outright. And bleeding to death while unconcious is even more common.[/quote']

I kind of tend to agree with the fact that most attacks may not kill you outright, but you'll get knocked out and bleed to death anyway. However I feel that the bleeding rules in HERO are a bit too relaxed in this sense - perhaps we keep the stun lotto and try to implement more gritty rules for bleeding instead?

 

Perhaps something like at the end of each turn (during recovery), wounded characters must make CON rolls (9 + CON/5) modified by -1 for each total DC taken from wounds or lose additional BODY equal to 1 for every 2 points rolled over. Unconcious characters do not get to roll and automatically lose BODY equal to total DC taken from wounds.

 

Characters may take a whole phase to staunch the wounds with some kind of medical or first aid roll in order to stop bleeding. However additional wounds taken after that will continue bleeding until tended to again.

 

This idea is based on many turn-based strategy games like X-Com and Jagged Alliance.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

have you seen the bleeding rules Fire G0lem wrote?

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

have you seen the bleeding rules Fire G0lem wrote?

 

No, any links?

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

have you seen the bleeding rules Fire G0lem wrote?

 

ditto. And here you go. It makes it less likely to die from a papercut and more likely to die from massive damage.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=750124#post750124

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

ditto. And here you go. It makes it less likely to die from a papercut and more likely to die from massive damage.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=750124#post750124

 

beat me, i was just looking it up

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33089

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

beat me, i was just looking it up

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33089

 

I had them book marked

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

cheater

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

The bleeding rules seem a bit over-complicated for my tastes, involving two additional rolls each time a character takes Body damage. I was hoping for something that doesn't get in the way of the action, e.g. only during the recovery phase.

 

Oh well, different strokes....

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

what bleeding rules are you looking at?

 

the ones that i linked you to only have 1 roll, post phase 12 for determining how much body and stun, and if you stop

[MadCow]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Whoops, I misread it but it is still sort of two rolls - one CON roll each time you take Body, and the other at post-12.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

Whoops' date=' I misread it but it is still sort of two rolls - one CON roll each time you take Body, and the other at post-12.[/quote']

 

that's only for wounds reopening, usually you wont' have to make that roll except the first time you take damage if you already have lost body

[zornwil]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

This may or may not be of interest - in supers games, which if adapted to normal games would be more punishing, the STUN total equals STuN + BOD, not just STUN. Put another way (and the way I originally thought about it), the defense acts against BOD damage first, any DEF against BOD is now "used up", and STUN goes against the remaining defense. For example, 20 STUN with 4 BOD goes against 15 DEF, so 15 DEF minus 4 = 11 DEF remaining and then 20 STUN - 11 DEF = 9 STUN gets through. Although it is indeed simpler to say that the attack is 20+4 = 24 STUN and 4 BOD.

 

Just a stray idea that may assist.

 

Also, if using the hit location, Etherio once posted an alternate version. I don't have his post link handy, but see http://www.realschluss.org/disavowed/house_rules/index.html and see the "Fighting" section in which the Hit Location alternative is indicated. Ahh, there's the source - http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16085&page=1&pp=15

[prestidigitator]

Re: Another firearm rules thread

 

How about a recoil modifier? Only applies on multiple attacks: every attack after the first takes the recoil penalty, so a gun with a recoil penalty of 0 would hit on an autofire attack once for every 2 points hit by. If it had a penalty of -1 it would hit once for every 3 points the roll is made by and so on. Some guns just are not worth firing until the magazine is empty.

 

You could also consider PSLs to counter that: managing recoil skill.

Personally I think the Str Min mechanic works fine for this. Remember that the Str Min goes up by 5 if you use Autofire (and the Brace maneuver decreases the Str Min by 5). Since Str doesn't add to damage for firearms, you will get a simple -1 OCV for each 5 points (or fraction) your Str is below the Str Min. PSLs could be used to counteract this penalty.