Multipower Help

[Lucius]

Cross posted.

 

 

 

I want a Teleport multipower.

One slot will be 10 hexes of Teleport, with certain advantages.

At least one other slot, maybe more, will be set up as "megahex" teleports.

 

These will be Fixed.

 

Another two slots will be for Teleport "adders" - one for extra mass, one for extra noncombat distance. These will be Flexible. If I'm carrying maximum mass, I get no extra noncombat distance. If I'm at maximum noncombat range, I can't carry more than the basic mass. Or I can go a medium distance with medium mass.

 

Obviously, the Multipower Pool has to have enough active points to use one Teleport slot, plus either of the adder slots or both in some combination. Which brings up another question, see below.....

 

First, is there anything "wrong" with the multipower I described? Is there any rule I missed about not putting adders in a slot that add to one or more other slots for example?

 

Second (and this may be more a judgement than a rules question, but I'm hoping you'll give an opinion at least) if a game has an active point limit on powers, would that apply to the SLOTS of a multipower or to the multipower POOL? i.e. if no one power in the multipower violates the active point limit, is it permissible if the multipower base cost is higher than the active point limit, allowing 2 or more seperate powers to run at or near that limit?

 

Since it is obviously legal to have several powers OUTSIDE the multipower that may all be at the active point limit, I don't see how having them INSIDE the multipower would change their legality....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to stifle the palindromedary from giving an unsolicited opinion

 

 

 

Steve Long

Administrator

 

Re: Multipower Question

 

1. Naked Advantages/Adders can't be bought as slots in Power Frameworks. What you'd need to buy would be three slots -- basic Teleport X", Teleport extra mass a bit less than X", and Teleport extra Noncombat a bit less than X." Or give the first slot an Advantage so they all have X" but different effects.

 

2. It's not only permissible to have a Multipower reserve that's larger than any one slot (so two or more can be used at once), there are dozens of published examples of that in our books. That's a very common tactic with Multipowers that combine a variety of useful powers (e.g., some attacks, some defenses, some movement, some utility powers). See, e.g., the Multipowers on USPD 268-69 or CU 18.

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

 

 

Hmm...maybe I should be rephrasing my question to Mr. Long, but I also want the input of Herodom Assembled.

 

How WOULD I model what I'm trying to do?

 

If I used the model Mr. Long provides, and tried to use half of the "extra mass" slot and half of the "extra noncombat distance" slot, would that work? i.e. if I have several teleport power slots, can I "combine" them in one phase? That seems a little off-kilter to me, compared to what I thought was a straightforward solution of putting the adders in slots and combining as much as I wanted from each of them.

 

I could always make a simpler character I suppose, but for some reason I wanted a "sliding scale" where I could take more mass, or go farther (noncombat)

 

more mass = less distance

more distance = less mass

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ubiquitous palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

The problem you're running into is two fold.

 

1) You can't combine slots in a multipower.

 

2) You can't purchase Extra Mass as a seperate Adder for Teleport, it's part of the Power itself.

 

Unless you can talk the GM into letting Extra Mass be a Naked Advantage what you're trying to model is best done with a VPP: Teleport Only or many slots in a Multipower.

 

I suggest the heavily limited VPP, the Active Point cap will let you know where the top of the scale is in either case and you can simply adjust the Teleport along that AP Limit with any combo of More Inches or More Mass.

[Lucius]

Multipower Help

 

The problem you're running into is two fold.

 

1) You can't combine slots in a multipower.

 

2) You can't purchase Extra Mass as a seperate Adder for Teleport, it's part of the Power itself.

 

Unless you can talk the GM into letting Extra Mass be a Naked Advantage what you're trying to model is best done with a VPP: Teleport Only or many slots in a Multipower.

 

I suggest the heavily limited VPP, the Active Point cap will let you know where the top of the scale is in either case and you can simply adjust the Teleport along that AP Limit with any combo of More Inches or More Mass.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe there's not an easier way to do this. I don't see it as THAT complicated a concept. In fact, it seemed like exactly the kind of scalable trade-off I tend to think a multipower is perfect for.

 

Unless you're trying to create a character that is by nature exremely versatile, like a gadgeteer or wizard, I tend to think of a Variable Power Pool as a last resort for modeling an effect. Maybe it's a prejudice to want to come at things from the other direction - I would rather take more specific powers and try to build some flexibility into them, than take the most wide-open construct in the game system and then limit the heck out of it.

 

And I find it hard to believe I'd need to build a different multipower slot for each possible combination of the two adders. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Could I take a forcefield multipower and make one slot all PD, and one slot all ED, and maybe more for Power and Mental Defense and so forth, and then decide from phase to phase how much of each protection I want? Or would I need a large variety of slots, say

 

10 Pd

9PD 1 ED

8PD 2 ED

7PD 3 ED

 

etc?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This palindromedary tagline is over 50% recycled content.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multipower Help

 

I'd suggest seeking GM permission for a Naked Advantage bought out of the multipower over seeking permission to run a multipower in a non standard way. I picked the Active point amount out randomly for the example.

 

 

30 Naked Advantage--30 Active Points NCM, 30 Points extra mass 60 Active points total. (Only 30 active points total may be used at one time) -1

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Once you purchase a Power they don't have a sliding scale to them - they are built to the ratio you have built them.

 

In your example of a Forcefield in a MP - if you build them as Flex Slots you can slide them up and down as long as both combined to exceed the MP Pool Points. You need each FF Type in a sperate slot. Read Force Field: once you define the ratio of DEF to each other they cannot be changed.

 

However - you are not combining to Powers into one. You have two seperate Force Field Powers active - even if the SFX is they are one Force Field Bubble.

 

With your Teleport you're trying to combien two seperate Teleport Powers into One Teleport, which is something you can not do with a Multi Power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

I'd suggest seeking GM permission for a Naked Advantage bought out of the multipower over seeking permission to run a multipower in a non standard way. I picked the Active point amount out randomly for the example.

 

 

30 Naked Advantage--30 Active Points NCM, 30 Points extra mass 60 Active points total. (Only 30 active points total may be used at one time) -1

NAs can't normally be built with Adders - only Advantages. Though it is a good idea.

 

I would flip it however, the NAs are in the MP as Flex Slots, affecting a Teleport bought Outside the MP

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

To clarify: Powers are not adjustable in that you can change the levels of Adders applied to them. You purchase the maximum level of Adder you want on the Power and adjust how much you use - up to the maximum.

 

Another thought on how to construct you Teleport:

 

By the full Teleport as 1 Power, with the max NCx and Mass Adders you want available and apply a Limitation that forces them to be used as a ratio. Otherwise you are best off using a Framework.

 

And I don't see everyone's inherent dislike of a VPP. Properly Limited a VPP is no more or less powerful than any other framework. Especially so if you Limit it to a single Power and SFX.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multipower Help

 

NAs can't normally be built with Adders - only Advantages. Though it is a good idea.

 

 

Well, once you start walking down that GM permission road, anythign goes.

[Lucius]

Multipower Help

 

Maybe I'll just have a minumum level of both adders in each teleport slot (there will be a basic teleport, and at least one maybe more megahex teleports) then have an Aid or Succor that can effect only one adder or the other at a time... blast, I can't believe this is turning out so complicated! It's a simple idea, really!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's not like I'm trying to build a palindromedary or something.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

If you go the Aid/Succor route don't forget to Aid/Succor the Pool before or at the same time.

 

And this is not as complicated as you make it to be... seriously. Use a VPP, it will give you your sliding scale freedom.

 

Pool 40 points, Control Cost: Cosmic +2, Specific SFX Teleport Only -2; 20 points. Total Cost 60 Points.

 

Now you can buy your Teleport with any level of Adders or Advantages or Inches you want up to 40 Active Points.

 

If there's further Limitations on the T-Port apply them to the Control Cost as well to further reduce the cost and you never have to worry about your Teleport again, build yourself a few example before hand of the various levels you want to use.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Alternate thought on the GM permission--allowing the adders to be bought with an advantage that they can be change to the other.

 

The player pays for X active points of adders, and defines which ones he can switch back and forth--the GM assigns an advntage value to that--the cost of the adders plus their specific advntage is then added to the teleport power (and further modified by any advantage bought on the teleport like 0 end. In my example, I settled on an advantage value of 1/2.

 

Example, using the compund power feature in herodesigner to make the slot..

Method A

 

70 Multipower, 70-point reserve

7u 1) Teleportation 20" (Real Cost: 40) plus Teleport Adders--20 active points., Custom Modifier (may switch between extra mass and NCM; +1/2) (30 Active Points) (Real Cost: 30)

3u 2) Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (30 Active Points)

 

 

Compared to the book legal method B

 

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve

6u 1) Teleportation 20", x32 Noncombat (60 Active Points)

6u 2) Teleportation 20", x16 Noncombat, x2 Increased Mass (60 Active Points)

6u 3) Teleportation 20", x4 Increased Mass, x8 Noncombat (60 Active Points)

6u 4) Teleportation 20", x4 Noncombat, x8 Increased Mass (60 Active Points)

6u 5) Teleportation 20", x16 Increased Mass (60 Active Points)

3u 6) Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down

 

Method C, which would look like what Lucius was hoping for , but wasn't remotely book legal would be this

 

Multipower 60 point reserve

4u 1) Teleportation 20" Noncombat (40 Active Points)

4m 2) 20 Active points of NCM

4m 2) 20 Active points of extra mass

3u 6) Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down

 

My Method A costs 5 points more than what I think he was hoping for..but then the pool does have a better active point limit any other slots purchased in the future they can make use of..and requires less fudging of multipowe rules.

[Lucius]

Multipower Help

 

Aiding the Multipower Pool might not be necessary. I had planned it to be bigger than any one power. But yes, aiding one of the slots to make it bigger would mean fewer pool points available...it would mean teleporting into a situation with the major defenses down, but I was expecting that with the multipower build anyway.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Why do I ride a palindromedary? Two heads are better than one.l

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to incrdbil again.

 

darnit. I like the Method A concept, very usable. Also, a thnx for writing it all out like that.

[Lucius]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Alternate thought on the GM permission--allowing the adders to be bought with an advantage that they can be change to the other.

 

The player pays for X active points of adders, and defines which ones he can switch back and forth--the GM assigns an advntage value to that--the cost of the adders plus their specific advntage is then added to the teleport power (and further modified by any advantage bought on the teleport like 0 end. In my example, I settled on an advantage value of 1/2.

 

Example, using the compund power feature in herodesigner to make the slot..

Method A

 

70 Multipower, 70-point reserve

7u 1) Teleportation 20" (Real Cost: 40) plus Teleport Adders--20 active points., Custom Modifier (may switch between extra mass and NCM; +1/2) (30 Active Points) (Real Cost: 30)

3u 2) Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (30 Active Points)

 

My Method A costs 5 points more than what I think he was hoping for..but then the pool does have a better active point limit any other slots purchased in the future they can make use of..and requires less fudging of multipowe rules.

 

Hmm....instead of "Variable Advantage" it would be "Variable Adder." I'm not necessarily happy about having to build it into EVERY slot (well, except for the slots that while teleport SFX aren't actually teleport powers) but it's not like I'm not already building several adders and advantages into each slot that are identical.

 

Maybe I'll run that by my Game Operations Director. But even though you called

Method C (which is by the way almost exactly what I had, except of course the pool is greater) "not remotely book legal" I still think it seems the most elegant approach.

 

Is there a game balance problem or other issue with it I'm just not seeing?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has four eyes, but still can't see everything....

[incrdbil]

Re: Multipower Help

 

 

Is there a game balance problem or other issue with it I'm just not seeing?

 

 

Well, besides sort of breaking the strict rules onmultipowers, it fudges the spsit of them--and as for game balance--you aren't seeing it because your build isn't really abusive. Think like a munchkin and try to use the type of multipower that Method C represents for evil. For maximum munchkiness, ad in naked advntage multipower slots.

 

I apologize to any GM's out there who just had flashbacks and broke out in a sweat.

[Lucius]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Well, besides sort of breaking the strict rules onmultipowers, it fudges the spsit of them--and as for game balance--you aren't seeing it because your build isn't really abusive. Think like a munchkin and try to use the type of multipower that Method C represents for evil. For maximum munchkiness, ad in naked advntage multipower slots.

 

I apologize to any GM's out there who just had flashbacks and broke out in a sweat.

 

 

Okay. I'm wearing blue. I'm imagining myself in a land where animals talk and witches wear white and no one thinks it too odd if your scarecrow decides to up and walk away from the field.....I'm trying to think like a munchkin.....

 

 

OOPS. Sorry. Wrong kind of munchkin.

 

 

You mean....like buying a suite of attack powers in a multipower, like

 

Energy Blast

Ranged Killing Attack

Flash

Drain COM

etc

 

plus a number of slots of "naked advantages" like

 

Autofire

No Normal Defense

Area Effect

 

 

And then try to sneak something by like putting both Autofire and No Normal Defense on the same attack, trying to get around the rule that says Autofire in that case takes another +1 advantage?

 

Or for that matter, just getting the benefit of having those advantages on each power (when desired) at a much cheaper cost than buying them for each power seperately, even if they're all in the multipower?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And the wonderful palindromedary of Oz

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Yep - that would be a good summation.

[Lucius]

Multipower Help

 

Advantages aside, can you think of a way naked Adders in a multipower would be abusive?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Nobody's asking the palindromedary, but when did that ever stop it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Well, just a from a non-MP point of view Adders shouldn't be bought naked to begin with.

[Basil]

Re: Multipower Help

 

Alternate thought on the GM permission--allowing the adders to be bought with an advantage that they can be change to the other.

 

The player pays for X active points of adders, and defines which ones he can switch back and forth--the GM assigns an advntage value to that--the cost of the adders plus their specific advntage is then added to the teleport power (and further modified by any advantage bought on the teleport like 0 end. In my example, I settled on an advantage value of 1/2.

 

Example, using the compund power feature in herodesigner to make the slot..

Method A

 

70 Multipower, 70-point reserve

7u 1) Teleportation 20" (Real Cost: 40) plus Teleport Adders--20 active points., Custom Modifier (may switch between extra mass and NCM; +1/2) (30 Active Points) (Real Cost: 30)

3u 2) Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (30 Active Points)

 

{snip}

I think it would (A) be simpler and ( get closer to Lucius's idea if you put, outside the MP a naked "Variable 'Advantage': up to +X in adders, Only For Increased Mass Or Increased Noncombat Movement (-1)"

 

Takes GM permission, but it's simple, clean, and elegant.

[Lucius]

Mega Question

 

While I'm wrestling with this....

 

I've noticed a reference here and there to something being "Megahex Scalable" apparently meaning a Megahex advantage that can be "scaled down."

 

I don't find it in Fred.

 

What is it, where does it come from, and how does it work?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests that should have been a seperate thread....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mega Question

 

While I'm wrestling with this....

 

I've noticed a reference here and there to something being "Megahex Scalable" apparently meaning a Megahex advantage that can be "scaled down."

 

I don't find it in Fred.

 

What is it, where does it come from, and how does it work?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests that should have been a seperate thread....

It's in Star Hero pg. 60. An additional +1/4 to Megascale let's you scale the defined 1" down to the minimum value from what you payed for.

 

If you bought 1" = 1 Light Year you're stuck at that scale, by buying the Scaleable portion you can scale that back all the way to 1"=1km.

[Lucius]

Re: Mega Question

 

It's in Star Hero pg. 60. An additional +1/4 to Megascale let's you scale the defined 1" down to the minimum value from what you payed for.

 

If you bought 1" = 1 Light Year you're stuck at that scale, by buying the Scaleable portion you can scale that back all the way to 1"=1km.

 

Which would spare me setting up several different megascale slots at least.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The verbivorous palindromedary has been consuming lyrics lately.