Sweep and CSLs

[Nucleon]

This is something that was brought to me in a discussion about the respective values of DEX and CSLs. It does look contradictory to me. I asked Steve, but I realized I wanted an explanation rather than a clear-cut decision.

 

Here it is.

 

From the FAQ

Q: If a character has 2-point Combat Skill Levels with an attack, can he apply those Levels when Rapid Firing or Sweeping that attack? Can he apply them when using that attack to try to Disarm someone? Can he apply them if performing a Move By or Move Through with that attack?

A: Yes, he can apply them to Rapid Fire/Sweep. Yes, he can apply them to Disarming attempts. Generally speaking, no, he cannot apply them to Move By/Through — that's too much like a separate attack instead of a simple variation/overlay on the existing attack — though the GM could grant an exception if he felt that was appropriate.

And a little bit further down the same FAQ:

 

Q: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack?

A: No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn't a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat

So if I understand well, I can use a 2-pts CSL with a kick (defined as a Strike) if I Sweep it, but I can't use a 3-pts CSL (M-Arts) with another kick (defined as an Offensive Strike) to Sweep. However, If I got a 5-pts CSL (hth combat), I may use it to Sweep with my Offensive Strike.

 

Now how can I explain that to my players?

 

[Tech]

Re: Sweep and CSLs

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

So if I understand well, I can use a 2-pts CSL with a kick (defined as a Strike) if I Sweep it, but I can't use a 3-pts CSL (M-Arts) with another kick (defined as an Offensive Strike) to Sweep. However, If I got a 5-pts CSL (hth combat), I may use it to Sweep with my Offensive Strike.

 

Now how can I explain that to my players?

 

 

I respect Steve's decisions but don't always agree with them. It does indeed some confusing. Perhaps he's being too fine-funed with this one to the point it's hard to see the distinction. Nucleon, it's your campaign. It's yours to do as you please. It you don't like it, change it. Make a ruling and abide by it. I'd say that if you have a CSL with a M-Arts Offensive Strike and wanted to do a Sweep, go for it! If I'm understanding your explanation of your levels, to state that a level for a manuever such as Offensive Strike, has been bought and yet, cannot be used in a generic manuever (Block, Dodge, Strike, etc) specifically Sweep in this matter, sounds very very odd.

[astralfrontier]

I think the important distinction in the FAQ is between CSLs with a WEAPON (or something like it, such as a Hand Attack) and CSLs with a MANEUVER (or set of them).

 

For example, I can buy my 2-point "Broadswords" CSL. With a broadsword (only), I can apply the CSL to any maneuver I make, as long as it's with that weapon, and if it's otherwise legal (for example, Martial Maneuvers with Weapon Element).

 

Or, I can buy my 3-point "Offensive Strike/Martial Block/Martial Disarm" CSL. I can now apply that CSL to those three maneuvers - barehanded, with my broadsword, or whatever. However, I can't apply it to any other maneuvers.

 

Or I can buy my 5-point "Hand to Hand" CSL, which can be applied any which way.

 

For characters who want a 2-point CSL that can be applied to most common maneuvers, I would allow something like "CSL: Fists & Feet". If the character had a style that used both armed and unarmed attacks (like most mature Asian forms), I'd make them go with the 3-point CSL.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by memesis

 

For characters who want a 2-point CSL that can be applied to most common maneuvers, I would allow something like "CSL: Fists & Feet". If the character had a style that used both armed and unarmed attacks (like most mature Asian forms), I'd make them go with the 3-point CSL.

 

Actualy, from what I understand, you can only add 2pt levels to one specific attack form.

 

You can buy +1 OCV w/Disarm for 2pts

or

You can buy +1 OCV w/Strike (barehanded) for 2pts

or

You can buy +1 OCV w/Block for 2pts

etc.

 

If you apply a 2pt +1 OCV to a weapon, that OCV bonus goes toward everything you do with that weapon. Strike, Block, Disarm, Bind...the whole enchilada.

 

Seems kinda unfair, doesn't it.

 

Perhaps you have a point and GM's should allow a 2pt +1 OCV (barehanded) for those who fight without weapons...they would get the +1 OCV to everything that armed fighters get it for (Strike, Block, Disarm, Bind etc)

 

Of course, 3pt (and higher) Skill levels are still far superior for Hand to Hand fighters, considering that 2pt levels can't add to DCV and DC...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Re: Sweep and CSLs

 

Originally posted by Tech

I respect Steve's decisions but don't always agree with them. It does indeed some confusing. Perhaps he's being too fine-funed with this one to the point it's hard to see the distinction. Nucleon, it's your campaign. It's yours to do as you please. It you don't like it, change it. Make a ruling and abide by it. I'd say that if you have a CSL with a M-Arts Offensive Strike and wanted to do a Sweep, go for it! If I'm understanding your explanation of your levels, to state that a level for a manuever such as Offensive Strike, has been bought and yet, cannot be used in a generic manuever (Block, Dodge, Strike, etc) specifically Sweep in this matter, sounds very very odd.

 

Agreed Tech.

 

I've played using the optional Sweep rules for many years now (long before the 5th edition came out, I was allowing sweep attacks against a single opponent. In fact, I was one of the Sweep maneuvers biggest supporters on the old message board, much to the chagrin of many rules-lawyers) and I've always allowed skill levels with Martial maneuvers to add to a sweep attack.

 

I've never had any real balance issues with it, but then again, a good majority of my games tend to run like The Matrix, Fight Anime or any one of the crazier Wuxia films.

[Nucleon]

Re: Re: Sweep and CSLs

 

Originally posted by Tech

Nucleon, it's your campaign. It's yours to do as you please. It you don't like it, change it. Make a ruling and abide by it. I'd say that if you have a CSL with a M-Arts Offensive Strike and wanted to do a Sweep, go for it!

 

Seems like the best thing to do indeed. Eeerrr, let's pretend I never saw that rule...

 

...And thanks for your point of view, Tech.