END and Combat Maneuvers

[Roland]

Earlier this week, Steve answered my question in the Rules Forum about whether the Flail Maneuver costs END beyond that for STR to use the weapon: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41936

 

Steve referred me to 5ER, p. 383. The relevant sentence reads, "Using a Combat Maneuver typically costs 1 END (see page 425), and the character also has to pay the END cost for any STR or power used with the Maneuver." So it appears that when you use the Flail Maneuver or any other Combat Maneuver you have to pay 1 END for the maneuver in addition to the END you pay for the STR you use.

 

I had never heard of this before - we have not done it that way in either of the Fantasy Hero campaigns I have played in. So I started digging. This sentence did not appear in the equivalent section of 5E. I consulted one of my GMs (I first played in his Champions campaign 20 years ago, so his knowledge of the rules goes way back). He tried to explain it away by suggesting the 1 END was only for maneuvers that did not involve a STR min, but I have trouble reconciling that interpretation with either the Flail-Maneuver context or the literal words of p. 383.

 

This rule is apparently mitigated by a sentence on p. 425, which says, "Martial Maneuvers do not cost END." So it would appear that a warrior who uses a plain old Strike maneuver with a weapon must pay an extra 1 END for the maneuver, while a martial artist (with the proper weapon element) could swing the same weapon with Martial Strike without paying the extra END.

 

Am I interpreting the rules correctly? Is this a change introduced by 5ER, or has it always been this way?

[Mike W]

Re: END and Combat Maneuvers

 

As a long time herophile, I don't recall it ever being a rule before. Based on what you have said, it appears that you are interpreting the rules correctly, although for myself, I think I will continue to ignore that rule now that I have seen it. I don't really like it and I think it complicates things too much. For instance, does a basic punch count as a strike that requires an extra point of END? Just like I've always thrown out most of the "pulling your punch rules"(I don't run an OCV penalty for it. I have no desire to penalize someone for trying to do the right thing.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: END and Combat Maneuvers

 

Well it is not what it says in the endurance rules on ER 425: you only pay 1 END if there is no other END cost (like for defensive manouvres). Personally p 383 will just have another line that gets scored through. These 'little changes' really are quite aggravating (as I may have mentioned before).

 

BTW the rule is (and has been for a long time, as you mentioned) that martial manouvres don't cost END. I can't see the sense in that, so they do in my games: it is only 1 point. Martial artists can fight for longer because they are fitter not becasue the punch uses less energy to perform.

[prestidigitator]

Re: END and Combat Maneuvers

 

I've been aware at least since 5E came out that there is some such official rule, but I personally don't charge End at all for meneuvers (beyond the End used for Str, movement, and any other Powers used to complete the maneuver). I suppose I might change this for a really gritty campaign, but that is my standard practice.

[radioKAOS]

Re: END and Combat Maneuvers

 

I've been aware at least since 5E came out that there is some such official rule' date=' but I personally don't charge End at [i']all[/i] for meneuvers (beyond the End used for Str, movement, and any other Powers used to complete the maneuver). I suppose I might change this for a really gritty campaign, but that is my standard practice.

 

Seconded. This is how the rule reads to me. The Martial Maneuver does not cost extra END above the END used for STR.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: END and Combat Maneuvers

 

I recall reading it somewhere in 4th Edition (my gut instinct being either Fantasy HERO or Ninja HERO), but not the Big Blue Book.

 

I never used it, myself, and probably still won't.