prestidigitator Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible ...build a "walk through walls" power... Wouldn't that be called, "Tunneling," or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted March 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible < smack!!! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Bump. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible I'd like to see Desolid reformed to something more like DC Heroes (Desolid works directly against DEF of objects). This construction just seems waaaaaay too complicated to me. Unnecessarily so. I'm not sure what extra value sub-dividing desolid does that wouldnt be better achieved by having an overall Desolid subject to power lims. Sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible I'd like to see Desolid reformed to something more like DC Heroes (Desolid works directly against DEF of objects). This construction just seems waaaaaay too complicated to me. Unnecessarily so. I'm not sure what extra value sub-dividing desolid does that wouldnt be better achieved by having an overall Desolid subject to power lims. Sorry! This wasn't attempt to make it simpler, but an attempt to do it more consistently and on par with it actual utility. I've been thinking of doing another version where it would be much simpler and use Advtanges/Limitations to allow for some variations. I might post my meanderings later today. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible I'd like to see Desolid reformed to something more like DC Heroes (Desolid works directly against DEF of objects). This construction just seems waaaaaay too complicated to me. Unnecessarily so. I'm not sure what extra value sub-dividing desolid does that wouldnt be better achieved by having an overall Desolid subject to power lims. Sorry! WAAYYY back in 1st Ed, Desolid was 5 points per BOD of object you could move through per phase, minimum cost 40. This predated objects having defenses, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible The obvious problem is that this write up makes for cheap invulnerability to every attack type you don't use. In particular, mental intangibility is something people would be lining up for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible The obvious problem is that this write up makes for cheap invulnerability to every attack type you don't use. In particular' date=' mental intangibility is something people would be lining up for.[/quote'] Then you also must think that NND attacks are too cheap since anyone can buy two NND attacks and be able to affect anyone. (not vs FF, not vs Armor) What you are describing is rules lawyering, and any GM that would allow such an abuse deserves what they get. Now Hugh has already noted that any Absolute Power (such Desolidifcation) will always be too cheap if it has a fixed cost and not scalable at higher level campaigns. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Then you also must think that NND attacks are too cheap since anyone can buy two NND attacks and be able to affect anyone. (not vs FF' date=' not vs Armor)[/quote'] Except my Armored Force Field using Powered Armor character (and his force field is invisible!). Now Hugh has already noted that any Absolute Power (such Desolidifcation) will always be too cheap if it has a fixed cost and not scalable at higher level campaigns. Absolutes can also be too expensive in low powered games. Why would anyone buy 75% Physical Damage Reduction for 60 points in a game where attacks top out at 8 DC? You could buy 16 Resistant PD (24) + 36 non-resistant PD for that 60 points and be far better protected from physical damage. You'd be completely invulnerable to an 8 DC normal attack or a 6 DC AP attack. A 2.5d6 KA can't do BOD, and will do 23 STUN with a perfect roll (vs 18.75 with 75% reduction). All calcs assume you spend no other points on physical defenses. The breakpoint hits between 69 and 70 STUN - won't be seeing greater than 69 STUN often in that game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Except my Armored Force Field using Powered Armor character (and his force field is invisible!). And how often will he have both up and how many character's will have this combination? (8^D) It was a generalization to show that just about any mechanic can be abused, some are more easily abused than others. Desolidfication and Intangible are no different than NND, AVLD, or Succor. They can all be abused if the GM allows it. Absolutes can also be too expensive in low powered games. Why would anyone buy 75% Physical Damage Reduction for 60 points in a game where attacks top out at 8 DC? You could buy 16 Resistant PD (24) + 36 non-resistant PD for that 60 points and be far better protected from physical damage. You'd be completely invulnerable to an 8 DC normal attack or a 6 DC AP attack. A 2.5d6 KA can't do BOD' date=' and will do 23 STUN with a perfect roll (vs 18.75 with 75% reduction). All calcs assume you spend no other points on physical defenses. The breakpoint hits between 69 and 70 STUN - won't be seeing greater than 69 STUN often in that game![/quote'] Agreed. Which is why I said that you had pointed out that Fixed Cost Absolutes will always have problem no matter how you design the mechanic. (8^D) Addendum: I'm going to try another variant to see if I can simplify and possibly add some scalablity. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Absolutes can also be too expensive in low powered games. Why would anyone buy 75% Physical Damage Reduction for 60 points in a game where attacks top out at 8 DC? IMHO, the single strongest argument against having any absolutes in a generic system. Unless the absolute value is somehow tied to campaign rules somehow. For that very reason, do we need any kind of intangible or desolid at all? Just get yourself some armour, tunnelling (or limited teleport), ridiculous quantities of DCV etc. etc. Or maybe even just some weird form of visible Clairsentience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible And how often will he have both up Pretty much all the time - the Field was pretty low DEF, and 0 END as I recall. It had a few other unusual features. It was invisible because I had become tired of NND Force Field characters always knowing whether their attack would work. and how many character's will have this combination? I'd normally say "very few". If there were a lot of characters with both NND's, there'd likely be a lot more characters with both defenses But your point that pretty much any mechanic can be abused is dead on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Then you also must think that NND attacks are too cheap since anyone can buy two NND attacks and be able to affect anyone. (not vs FF, not vs Armor) What you are describing is rules lawyering, and any GM that would allow such an abuse deserves what they get. Not the same thing at all. With this power as written, it is perfectly standard to buy "intangibility" piecemeal. That's how it would usually end up being purchased since few characters would be able to afford getting all the categories anyway. No clever manipulation is required to just buy a power as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Not the same thing at all. With this power as written' date=' it is perfectly standard to buy "intangibility" piecemeal. That's how it would usually end up being purchased since few characters would be able to afford getting all the categories anyway. No clever manipulation is required to just buy a power as is.[/quote'] Ah, then you would definately think that Adjustment Powers should be banned. Buying Drain as is allows one to affect an Infinite amount of SFX per power. Buy enough Drains and you can affect all SFX of all possible powers for a pittance in points. But you will probably like my the variant I am currently working on better. I should be able to post it tomorrow. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Ah, then you would definately think that Adjustment Powers should be banned. Buying Drain as is allows one to affect an Infinite amount of SFX per power. No, that doesn't bother me. Getting an infinite number of points of drain would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible No' date=' that doesn't bother me. Getting an infinite number of points of drain would.[/quote'] Apparently you've not looked closely at Drain. It has no Cap so you can continue to do it over and over again. (1d6 or 2d6) Buy up the Fade Rate a lttle. Buy enough Drains and linking them means you Drain "everything" on a character regardless of SFX at once. You can take down anyone with enough time. And Drain doesn't even have a Caution Sign. So if you don't have a problem with this, I don't know why you would have problem with Intangible, since it is a Stop Sign power, or at least the version you are reffering to I think. Perhaps you could elaborate exactly what it is that bothers you about it. Maybe some example builds using this construct to show me what you are talking about. If it seems valid, I might change things. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Apparently you've not looked closely at Drain. It has no Cap so you can continue to do it over and over again. (1d6 or 2d6) Buy up the Fade Rate a lttle. Buy enough Drains and linking them means you Drain "everything" on a character regardless of SFX at once. You can take down anyone with enough time. The words "with enough time" are very important in that regard. Mental intangibility would render a mentalist useless, no matter how powerful he might be. A drain that slowly chips away at people's abilities but has no real chance of taking someone out before the fight will be over is not the same kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyon Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Cool concept but I don't even like my players to have a desolid power. It is just so powerful and can possibly ruin many fun scenerios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 Re: New Power: Intangible Cool concept but I don't even like my players to have a desolid power. It is just so powerful and can possibly ruin many fun scenerios Agreed. Which is why Desolid or any other power similar should have a Stop Sign on it as notice that the GM should tightly control whether the power is suitable for their campaign. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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