Ego Attack: What am I missing?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Right, figured that out long before I even posted the question. The problem, however, is Steve says there is no modifier to do that.

 

I don't know if you all think I'm just not smart enough to have figured out that a +1/2 or whatever modifier to an EGO attack is the easiest most cost effective way of doing it, so let me put that to rest: Yes I do know it is.

 

HOWEVER, when the question was asked to Steve Long, the reply was there is NO MODIFIER. Which is why I created my work around.

Just because there is no official Modifier does not mean you cannot come up with one. That's what the Limited Power, "Limitation," is about, after all. I suppose we could call the Advantage corollary, "Advantaged Power," or something.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

We had an extensive thread some time ago on converting from dex-based OCV to Ego-based or vice versa. Many felt this should be a +0 (the book actually cites the potential of making a power a Mental Power based on its SFX, which would make this change, IIRC), and a lot of the others felt +1/4 would be appropriate.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Right, figured that out long before I even posted the question. The problem, however, is Steve says there is no modifier to do that.

 

I don't know if you all think I'm just not smart enough to have figured out that a +1/2 or whatever modifier to an EGO attack is the easiest most cost effective way of doing it, so let me put that to rest: Yes I do know it is.

 

HOWEVER, when the question was asked to Steve Long, the reply was there is NO MODIFIER. Which is why I created my work around.

 

Just because there is no modifier already doesnt mean you can't make one for yourself.

[Utech]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Energy Blast, AVLD (Ego Defense) +1 1/2, Invisble Power Effects +1, No Range Modifier +1/2.

 

This makes 1d6 of this power cost 20points. Why does Ego Attack only cost 10points?

 

(bold mine)

 

I don't know that anyone has actually answered this directly. I'll try...

 

Ego Attack and Energy Blast are two different powers. They have different costs and different mechanics.

 

You seem to be trying to add Advantages to an Energy Blast in hopes of creating an Ego Attack. But that's like putting wheels on a horse when what you want is a car. It just doesn't work.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

(bold mine)

 

I don't know that anyone has actually answered this directly. I'll try...

 

Ego Attack and Energy Blast are two different powers. They have different costs and different mechanics.

 

You seem to be trying to add Advantages to an Energy Blast in hopes of creating an Ego Attack. But that's like putting wheels on a horse when what you want is a car. It just doesn't work.

I can accept that, but there is a lot more to that post than just that. When I read Steve's response, I took it to mean you can't just add a modifier to EGO Blast and call it good.

 

Since I believed I couldn't go the easy route, I wanted to come up with a work around, which I did. I've done work arounds before, but there were things I didn't take into account and messed them up. When I saw the cost of my work around, I figured I had messed something up again, so I started this thread to see if someone else saw a mistake I had made.

 

A couple mistakes were pointed out, but when I fixed them it didn't change the cost at all.

 

Now you say I want a car, so I've put wheels on a horse, but the way I read Steve's response, he's outlawed cars so can anyone figure out a better way to get one?

[Kelcyron]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Now you say I want a car, so I've put wheels on a horse, but the way I read Steve's response, he's outlawed cars so can anyone figure out a better way to get one?

 

Just because Steve said something isn't legal doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it if it make sense. If the nice and simple "Limited power: Uses CV instead of ECV (-1/4)" works for you then you should use it, whether or not Steve has said it can't/shouldn't be done.

 

Kelcyron

[Vurbal]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

I can accept that, but there is a lot more to that post than just that. When I read Steve's response, I took it to mean you can't just add a modifier to EGO Blast and call it good.

 

Since I believed I couldn't go the easy route, I wanted to come up with a work around, which I did. I've done work arounds before, but there were things I didn't take into account and messed them up. When I saw the cost of my work around, I figured I had messed something up again, so I started this thread to see if someone else saw a mistake I had made.

 

A couple mistakes were pointed out, but when I fixed them it didn't change the cost at all.

 

Now you say I want a car, so I've put wheels on a horse, but the way I read Steve's response, he's outlawed cars so can anyone figure out a better way to get one?

Actually he didn't say it was against the rules. What he said was that there are no official rules that cover this. That just means you need to come up with your own.

[Vurbal]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Just because Steve said something isn't legal doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it if it make sense.

 

Kelcyron

Steve would also never say such a thing. He'll tell you whether it's legal within the framework of the official rules, but he'll also be the first to tell you to ignore those rules if it makes your game more fun.

[tesuji]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Actually he didn't say it was against the rules. What he said was that there are no official rules that cover this. That just means you need to come up with your own.

 

Actually he went even further than just saying "no" to the question about "are there rules..." he even gave one possible build using RSR to ADD a "must hit CV vs CV too" to the task.

 

So he definitely did not outlaw it or declare it illegal, just noted there weren't rules already to cover it and gave one "how to do it..." suggestion.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Steve would also never say such a thing. He'll tell you whether it's legal within the framework of the official rules' date=' but he'll also be the first to tell you to ignore those rules if it makes your game more fun.[/quote']

 

My comment was more for the "Steve said so-and-so, and therefore it must be done this way" crowd. There seems to be a lot of people who take anything Steve says as gospel without considering whether or not it actually makes sense to them.

 

Kelcyron

[Utech]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

When I read Steve's response' date=' I took it to mean you can't just add a modifier to EGO Blast and call it good.[/quote']

Ah! You misread. He said nothing of the sort. You certainly can add a modifier to Ego Attack. There just is no official modifier for it yet.

 

Now you say I want a car' date=' so I've put wheels on a horse, but the way I read Steve's response, he's outlawed cars so can anyone figure out a better way to get one?[/quote']

Several suggestions made already. To repeat mine: Works vs. DCV is a -1/2 Limitation on Ego Attack.

 

Reasoning:

Comparing DCV/ECV in example characters in 5ER, pages 343-346 and sample characters in 5ER, pages 496-537 suggests that Works vs. DCV is a Limitation on Ego Attack about half the time.

 

Randall Irons 5/4

Small Child 3/2

Senior Citizen 3/4

Average Person 3/3

Noteworthy Normal 3/3

Skilled Normal 4/3

Competent Normal 5/4

Taurus 8/4

Eagle-Eye 8/4

Hardpoint 8/5

Maelstrom 8/4

Slash 6/3

Darien the Bold 5/3

Belakar 5/5

Yeung Li 6/4

The Verdict 6/4

Alena Drake 6/5

Jessica Fivedawns 5/4

[Vurbal]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

My comment was more for the "Steve said so-and-so, and therefore it must be done this way" crowd. There seems to be a lot of people who take anything Steve says as gospel without considering whether or not it actually makes sense to them.

 

Kelcyron

I agree 100%. In fact within the last few days Steve had this to say:

Questions of what's "legal" for a given game I have to leave to the GM -- if you have specific questions on specific rules issues I'm happy to answer 'em, but I definitely don't want to get into the business of evaluating individual power constructs for acceptability.

[tesuji]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Several suggestions made already. To repeat mine: Works vs. DCV is a -1/2 Limitation on Ego Attack.

 

Reasoning:

Comparing DCV/ECV in example characters in 5ER, pages 343-346 and sample characters in 5ER, pages 496-537 suggests that Works vs. DCV is a Limitation on Ego Attack about half the time.

 

By the same logic, it isn't limiting the other half the time and a limitation that isn't a limitation isn't worth points.

 

right?

 

BTW, did you man by this that "ECv is lower than CV" about half the time, because that doesn't at all turn into "going from ECV to CV is limiting half the time."

 

How did you go from the stats you presented to your conclusion?

[Utech]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

By the same logic' date=' it isn't limiting the other half the time and a limitation that isn't a limitation isn't worth points.[/quote']

 

You might want to look at the Limited Power Limitation on page 298.

 

How did you go from the stats you presented to your conclusion?

 

I've already explained this before. To repeat:

 

Most campaigns feature nearly all player characters with a higher DCV than ECV but nearly all average folk with roughly equal DCV and ECV scores. I call it a -1/2 Limitation. If you lose other benefits that are usually assigned to Ego Attack then the Limitation would, of course, be worth more.

[Utech]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

BTW' date=' did you man by this that "ECv is lower than CV" about half the time, because that doesn't at all turn into "going from ECV to CV is limiting half the time."[/quote']

*shrug* I guess your mileage varies. Feel free to value it as you will.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

BTW' date=' did you man by this that "ECv is lower than CV" about half the time, because that doesn't at all turn into "going from ECV to CV is limiting half the time."[/quote']

 

Well, it is limiting about half the time, but the severity of the limitation is debateable. Assuming an 8 ECV (not unreasonably high for a mentalist), the characters listed will still be hit well over half the time. The median difference looks to be 3, the median DCV 6 and the median DECV 4, so I go from hitting on a 15- to a 13-. That doesn't strike me as being hugely limiting. I doubt I woud call -2 OCV, or even a -3 OCV, with a 10- activation roll a -1/2 limitation. I might not even cal it a -1/2 limitation if it happened with every use of the power.

 

[NOTE: costs +1 END on 10- would also be limiting 1/2 the time, since I'll roll 10- half the time, but I wouldn't call that a -1/2 limitation either]

[tesuji]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

You might want to look at the Limited Power Limitation on page 298.

Been there. seen that.

 

this doesn't lose it much at all, much less a third of its effectiveness.

 

I've already explained this before. To repeat:

 

Most campaigns feature nearly all player characters with a higher DCV than ECV but nearly all average folk with roughly equal DCV and ECV scores. I call it a -1/2 Limitation. If you lose other benefits that are usually assigned to Ego Attack then the Limitation would, of course, be worth more.

 

The change being discussed is "i use my dex cv vs your dex cv to hit you instead of my using my ego cv vs your ego cv to hit you."

 

So if we assume that supers tend to have higher Dex CV than Ego CV and that normals tend to have flat for both.

 

So, againt the normals, moving from my ego vs your ego to my dex vs your dex HELPS me, since my dex is higher than my ego but your two stay the same.

 

Against super-opposition, my "higher dex" is up against your "higher dex" which is a wash against "my lesser ego is up against your lesser ego".

 

Even against supers but stronger against normals night ne a +0 or +1/4.

 

 

But, as already stated by me, were i pricing the thing, it would be average vs average but "what are the characters efo and dex based CVs and how do they compare to my campaign levels" and go from there.

[Vurbal]

Re: Ego Attack: What am I missing?

 

Well, it is limiting about half the time, but the severity of the limitation is debateable. Assuming an 8 ECV (not unreasonably high for a mentalist), the characters listed will still be hit well over half the time. The median difference looks to be 3, the median DCV 6 and the median DECV 4, so I go from hitting on a 15- to a 13-. That doesn't strike me as being hugely limiting. I doubt I woud call -2 OCV, or even a -3 OCV, with a 10- activation roll a -1/2 limitation. I might not even cal it a -1/2 limitation if it happened with every use of the power.

 

[NOTE: costs +1 END on 10- would also be limiting 1/2 the time, since I'll roll 10- half the time, but I wouldn't call that a -1/2 limitation either]

Depending on the exact power it might even be variable within the same campaign. For example if the power doesn't do any significant amount of damage but is instead just useful for breaking concentration of mentalists or mages it might be an advantage because they're likely to have lower CV than ECV. OTOH it could be a power that's used to do damage to brick or blaster type characters who would likely have higher CV than ECV so it could be a limitation. On the third hand it could be a power used for a crowd control type power used primarily on groups of normals or agents and be a -0 limitation because they'll likely have pretty much equivalent ECV and CV. Realistically the same character could have powers with each of these variants, making it a +1/2 advantage on one, a -1/4 limitation on another, and a -0 limitation on a third. Obviously these specific numbers aren't meaningful since the point is that it depends on the assumed target.

 

What this really points out is the problems inherent in placing a fixed value on modifiers where the net result depends on a range of external targets and what assumptions you can (or can't) make about those targets.