What kind of aliens?

[Nyrath]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

Now it is possible that aliens would have developed some ethos that genuinely prohibits them from being crappy to one another and by extension, to us. But I don't see any evidence of that from experience.

 

Before anyone comes up with anecdotes of altruism or genuine human kindness, in general our history is littered with barbarous behavior, both as a the human species and as earthly life. Not trying to be a downer here, it's just nature.

 

Keith "On the whole, it's good to be the top of the food chain" Curtis

Agreed.

From http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aa.html#killingstar

 

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

 

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

 

2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

 

3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And as to the pious hope: "Now it is possible that aliens would have developed some ethos that genuinely prohibits them from being crappy to one another and by extension, to us."

 

...Dr. Wells has obviously bought into the view of a friendly galaxy. This view is based upon the argument that unless we humans conquer our self-destructive warlike tendencies, we will wipe out our species and no longer be a threat to extrasolar civilizations. All well and good up to this point.

 

But then these optimists make the jump: If we are wise enough to survive and not wipe ourselves out, we will be peaceful -- so peaceful that we will not wipe anybody else out, and as we are below on Earth, so other people will be above.

 

This is a non sequitur, because there is no guarantee that one follows the other, and for a very important reason: "They" are not part of our species.

 

Presumably there is some sort of inhibition against killing another member of our own species, because we have to work to overcome it...

 

But the rules do not apply to other species. Both humans and wolves lack inhibitions against killing chickens.

 

Humans kill other species all the time, even those with which we share the common bond of high intelligence. As you read this, hundreds of dolphins are being killed by tuna fishermen and drift netters. The killing goes on and on, and dolphins are not even a threat to us.

 

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other intelligent species is probably wrong.

[austenandrews]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence.

Depends on how you look at it. In terms of truly "high intelligence," we only have a single data point - ourselves - and as has been stated, we do have an inhibition against killing ourselves (sadly not enough of an inhibition, when speaking of populations; but that's a different matter).

 

You can play with these generalizations all day, but ultimately they're angels on pinheads.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

I've read some descriptions of SF aliens who were pacifistic and cooperative, and they are usually based on the concept that the races evolved from very, very large, strong creatures who were simply too large and strong for any other creature in their eco-system to prey on, and they were herbivores, so they did not develop aggression as nothing preyed on them, and they didn't need to prey on anything.

 

Such creatures usually evolved intelligence as a defense against environmental conditions, or as a result of developing agriculture. They also usually developed cooperative intelligence and society.

 

Creatures like them might be intelligent, technological but non-belligerant.

[fwcain]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

I've read some descriptions of SF aliens who were pacifistic and cooperative, and they are usually based on the concept that the races evolved from very, very large, strong creatures who were simply too large and strong for any other creature in their eco-system to prey on, and they were herbivores, so they did not develop aggression as nothing preyed on them, and they didn't need to prey on anything.

 

Such creatures usually evolved intelligence as a defense against environmental conditions, or as a result of developing agriculture. They also usually developed cooperative intelligence and society.

 

Creatures like them might be intelligent, technological but non-belligerant.

Then I imagine that homo sapiens would be a nightmare-made-flesh to them: a race of sentient meat-eaters who evolved through vicious competition instead of co-operation, with a history of self-aggression and self-destruction. I imagine they'd be terrified of us.

 

And what does a rational, co-operative people do about something that terrifies them?...

 

Franklin

[Nyrath]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

I've read some descriptions of SF aliens who were pacifistic and cooperative' date=' and they are usually based on the concept that the races evolved from very, very large, strong creatures who were simply too large and strong for any other creature in their eco-system to prey on, and they were herbivores, so they did not develop aggression as nothing preyed on them, and they didn't need to prey on anything.[/quote']

Example: James P. Hogan's THE GENTLE GIANTS OF GANYMEDE. However, that particular novel seems a bit contrived to me.

[David Johnston]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

Then I imagine that homo sapiens would be a nightmare-made-flesh to them: a race of sentient meat-eaters who evolved through vicious competition instead of co-operation, with a history of self-aggression and self-destruction. I imagine they'd be terrified of us.

 

And what does a rational, co-operative people do about something that terrifies them?...

 

Quite right. People who take the occasional border skirmish in their stride are a lot less dangerous than the people for whom any such event is a horrific tragedy.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

On a side isue about aliens, I've had some thoughts about wehat kind of intelligent, tool using, technologically advanced creatures me might meet, and while I know that ANYTHING is possible in a universe as big as ours with as many worlds as our, I personally believe that they are LIKELY to be something similar to endothermic omnivores.

 

I base this not on the fact that humans are warm blooded omnivores, but rather on the following:

 

 

 

1. A warm blood creature can survive in the widest ranges of climates, and thus will tend to fill ecological niches all over a planet, from equator to poles.

 

Cold bloods will do well in warm climates but will in the end likely fill fewer niches that the more adaptable warm bloods. (Note that on a planet that's warm from pole to equator this may not matter much, of course.)

 

Still, a warm blood is more likely to survive a sudden environmental catastrophe that a cold blood. This coves asteroid impacts, ice ages, etc. Thus they may survive things that wipe out a lot of cold bloods.

 

 

Also, an omnivore is more adaptable than a carnivore or a herbivore, and again able to fill more niches, diverge into more species and lthus be likely to have a species evolve intelligence. This also argues in favor of a warm blood.

 

Lastly, an omnivore is more likely to develop agriculture if it becomes intelligent, and agriculte is likely the first step towards civillization and technology as it gives free time to former hunter/gatherers, and this free time can be used to develop basic math, record keeping, writing, etc.

 

While we may encounter intelligent tech users who are not warm blooded or omnivores, I just think the odds favor them due to their survivability and adaptability, and their ability to fill the most niches with species and thus increase the chance of one becoming intelligent.

[fwcain]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

Cold bloods will do well in warm climates but will in the end likely fill fewer niches that the more adaptable warm bloods. (Note that on a planet that's warm from pole to equator this may not matter much' date=' of course.)[/quote']I must dispute one point... In the short run (say, millions to tens of millions of years), warm-blooded critters may well have the evolutionary advantage. However, given a long-enough timespan (hundreds of millions to thousands of millions [i.e.: billions] of years), that's not necessarily the case.

 

As proof, I offer this: Fish teem in the Arctic Ocean.

 

Franklin

[keithcurtis]

Re: What kind of aliens?

 

On the dolphin point. I must point out that we do have inhibitions about killing them. There are laws protecting them. The laws are not universal, nor perfect, but neither are the laws against killing members of our own species.

We do have a reluctance to kill slightly less powerful, less intelligent beings.

 

Keith "Now if the dolphins had guns and took potshots at us, we'd wipe them out" Curtis