New Power: Limbs

[schir1964]

Limbs

Limbs allow a character to interact with their immediate environment. Usually Limbs represent Hands, Arms, Feet, and Legs, but may also represent other things such as Tails, Tendrils, Cybernetic Tools, and so forth. There are three components that comprise a Limb: STR, Manipulation, and Reach. Each of these may be purchased as varying levels to represent different SFX. Limbs default to having 0 STR, Default Manipulation (GM Determined), and Default Reach (GM Determined). Puchasing this power is for a single limb. The Advantage Increased Limbs allows you to increase the number of limbs.

 

Each limb is independently controlled and ambidextrous by default. A character with multiple limbs may pick up as many unresisting objects in a single phase as they have limbs (this is considered a manuever not an attack or grab).

 

For attack and grabs the character may sweep up to as many objects as they have limbs. If they use double the number limbs for a sweep (two limbs per target) then the character gets a +1 vs Sweep. Every doubling grants a +1 vs Sweep.

 

Example: Human Template (10 Points)

Two Limbs (Arms with Hands): Reach 1", Borrowed STR (10), Handedness, Default Manipulation

Two Limbs (Legs with Feet): Reach 1", Borrowed STR (10), Handedness, No Manipulation

 

Example: Monkey's Tail (2 Points)

One Limb (Tail): Reach 1", Borrowed STR (10), No Manipulation

 

Cost

Borrowed STR (from STR Stat): 1 Point Per 5 Points

Independent STR: 1 Point Per 1 Point

[thread=1213228]Manipulation[/thread]: 5 Points Per +1 Manipulation

[thread=51284]Reach[/thread]: 2 Points Per 1" Reach

 

Modifiers

 

Advantages

Increased Limbs (+1 Per x2): Doubles then number of limbs a character may have.

 

Limitations

Handedness (-1/2, -1): Character has dominate limb(s). Half the limbs are considered off hand and suffer off hand penalties (-1/2). All but a single limb are considered the off hand (-1).

STR Affected By Handedness (-1/2, -1): Character has dominate limb(s). Half the limbs are dominate and STR is divided at 2/3rds (-1/2). A single limb is dominate and STR is divided at 3/4ths (-1).

Restricted Manipulation (-1/4 to -1): Limb(s) have no manipulation. Tenth or Less (-1/4), Fourth or Less (-1/2), Half or Less (-3/4), Greater Than Half (-1).

Shared Lift (-1/2): STR is divided equally among limbs for Holding/Lifting.

Shared STR (-1): STR is divided equally among limbs for Attacks.

Hold/Lift STR Only (-1): Limb has STR for Holding/Lift only.

 

[thread=1213228]Manipulation[/thread]

[thread=51284]Reach[/thread]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

What is normal STR used for under this system? My limbs start with no STR by default, so do most characters kick and head butt?

 

It seems like this thread, your Reach thread and your Manipulation thread are inextricably linked - perhaps they would be better presented as a single thread so the interactions might be addressed.

 

Hmmm...

 

1 limb

 

70 STR, 1" reach - that's 72 points

 

Handedness (all but one limb; -1)

STR affected (-2)

All but one has Restricted Manipulation (-2)

Shared STR (-1)

 

72/6 = 12 points.

 

14d6 Punch from the one armed man for 12 points.

 

Nope, I'm thinking this doesn't work...

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

What is normal STR used for under this system?

If you want your limbs to be more that 0 STR by default.

 

My limbs start with no STR by default' date=' so do most characters kick and head butt?[/quote']

I guess I didn't make it clear. You get "0 STR" with limbs, not "No STR". STR as the zero level allows one to lift 25 Kg. This allows for manipulation of most things, but grants no bonus to Attacks/Grabs. It was compromise for integration into the current system.

 

It seems like this thread' date=' your Reach thread and your Manipulation thread are inextricably linked - perhaps they would be better presented as a single thread so the interactions might be addressed.[/quote']

Yes, Limbs is built using the Reach and Manipulation. I had to define what Manipulation/Reach is and does for the system, since the current system doesn't really address them in detail.

 

And no. It is better to have them in different threads in order to keep the discussion more focused. I will had the other threads as links though since you mentioned it. Thanks.

 

1 limb

 

70 STR, 1" reach - that's 72 points

 

Handedness (all but one limb; -1)

STR affected (-2)

All but one has Restricted Manipulation (-2)

Shared STR (-1)

 

72/6 = 12 points.

 

14d6 Punch from the one armed man for 12 points.

 

Nope, I'm thinking this doesn't work...

Sorry Hugh. You need to build it properly. Your build is invalid.

 

Correct build:

1 Limb

70 STR (14d6 Punch), 1" reach - that's 72 points

All but one has Restricted Manipulation (-2)

72/3 = 24 Points

 

A single limbed character doesn't have any sort of Handedness, so limitations based on that is not valid.

A single limbed character doesn't share with any other limbs, so that limitation isn't valid either.

 

Now, what is in question is the value of the limitation Restricted Manipulation.

 

What value would you assign to a limitation on STR if the character could only use it for Punching? Perhaps -1 would better reflect it?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

If you want your limbs to be more that 0 STR by default.

 

Are my limbs 0 STR by default regardless of my actual STR score, or do they equal my actual STR score by default? You state the former above, but the latter below.

 

I guess I didn't make it clear. You get "0 STR" with limbs' date=' not "No STR". STR as the zero level allows one to lift 25 Kg. This allows for manipulation of most things, but grants no bonus to Attacks/Grabs. It was compromise for integration into the current system.[/quote']

 

My question still stands. If, by default, my limbs have 0 STR, I cannot inflict damage using those limbs unless I depart from the default.

 

Yes, Limbs is built using the Reach and Manipulation. I had to define what Manipulation/Reach is and does for the system, since the current system doesn't really address them in detail.

 

And no. It is better to have them in different threads in order to keep the discussion more focused. I will had the other threads as links though since you mentioned it. Thanks.

 

If I can't build Limbs without Reach and Manipulation, this thread cannot reasonably stand on its own. The three issues are inextricable.

 

Sorry Hugh. You need to build it properly. Your build is invalid.

 

Correct build:

1 Limb

70 STR (14d6 Punch), 1" reach - that's 72 points

All but one has Restricted Manipulation (-2)

72/3 = 24 Points

 

That's still a 14d6 Punch for 24 points. A 10 STR character pays 40 points for a +12d6 Hand Attack and can't use it to grab, throw, lift, etc., so I think it's a pretty good deal.

 

A single limbed character doesn't have any sort of Handedness, so limitations based on that is not valid.

A single limbed character doesn't share with any other limbs, so that limitation isn't valid either.

 

But "all but one limb has restricted manipulation" is OK for a one limbed creature.

 

Or I can modify my concept. I'll be a two armed man.

 

2 limbs

 

70 STR, 1" reach - that's 72 points

 

+1 Advantage for twice as many limbs = 144 points

 

Handedness (all but one limb; -1)

STR affected (-2)

All but one has Restricted Manipulation (-2)

Shared STR (-1)

 

144/6 = 24 points.

 

Same point cost as the one armed man...the second arm is free. That third and fourth limb will raise the cost to 36 points, though.

 

I'm still thinking this doesn't work...

 

What value would you assign to a limitation on STR if the character could only use it for Punching? Perhaps -1 would better reflect it?

 

Well, I have to start with questioning paying 1 point per STR for my limb only when I could pay 1 point per STR for SR that affects limbs, leaping and figured characteristics. Of course, now I question what "limited manipulation" is intended to mean (and why it's a topic for the "Limbs" thread, rather than the "manipulation thread", referring back to my theory that these three discussions are inextricably linked). Are the only choices "full manipulation" and "can only use as a bludgeon"?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

Are my limbs 0 STR by default regardless of my actual STR score' date=' or do they equal my actual STR score by default? You state the former above, but the latter below.[/quote']

It's obvious you don't understand my intent for this construct at all. (8^D)

 

The Limbs construct is just like Growth and Shrinking. It's a collection of other mechanics. If Growth were to allow you build up instead of forcing you to be larger with the initial purchase then you would have it granting STR also.

 

My question still stands. If' date=' by default, my limbs have 0 STR, I cannot inflict damage using those limbs unless I depart from the default.[/quote']

Hugh, no one is forcing you to use the STR component of the power. If you want it to grant the same STR as you normal STR stat then do so. I'm not telling you how this mechanic must be used.

 

If I can't build Limbs without Reach and Manipulation' date=' this thread cannot reasonably stand on its own. The three issues are inextricable.[/quote']

Okay. That's you opinion. I disagree.

 

That's still a 14d6 Punch for 24 points. A 10 STR character pays 40 points for a +12d6 Hand Attack and can't use it to grab' date=' throw, lift, etc., so I think it's a pretty good deal.[/quote']

Okay, so then you agree that the one limitation should be worth less, right?

 

I rework those values.

 

 

But "all but one limb has restricted manipulation" is OK for a one limbed creature.

Actually, I wasn't sure if the wording on the last level was correct. I was torn between having "All But One Limb" and "All Limbs". I've got my answer now. I'll be changing that to be "All Limbs".

 

Or I can modify my concept. I'll be a two armed man.

Well then, that's different then. (8^D)

 

Well' date=' I have to start with questioning paying 1 point per STR for my limb only when I could pay 1 point per STR for SR that affects limbs, leaping and figured characteristics. Of course, now I question what "limited manipulation" is intended to mean (and why it's a topic for the "Limbs" thread, rather than the "manipulation thread", referring back to my theory that these three discussions are inextricably linked). Are the only choices "full manipulation" and "can only use as a bludgeon"?[/quote']

With the Hero System, there is only Fine/Rough/No Manipulation. This doesn't really help with scaling. The Manipulation mechanic doesn't need those since it is based on the penalties and bonuses granted.

 

And Hugh, you were the one that convinced me in the other thread that Extra Limbs has the unique mechanic of "Manipulation".

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

Okay, I've updated the initial post. I've changed the values to better reflect the utility and I also added "Borrowed STR" in deference to Hugh.

 

Test examples:

1 Limb

Independent STR 70 (70 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), No Manipulation (-1)

72/2 = 36 Points

14d6 Punch (1 Limb)

 

2 limbs

Independent STR 70 (70 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x2 Limbs (+1), Handedness (Half: -1/2), STR Affected By Handedness (-1/2), Restricted Manipulation (-3/4)

144/2.75 = 53 Points

Dominate Limb: 53 STR (10.5d6)

Lesser Limb: 17 STR (3.5d6)

Only one of these limbs has manipulation.

 

Hmmm... not bad...

 

Hugh, several things I thought would be obvious (my mistake):

STR Affected By Handedness and Shared STR are mutually exclusive by thier definitions.

Handedness (All But One Limb) may only be taken if you have more than two limbs, otherwise it is Handedness (Half).

Restricted Manipulation (Greater Than Half) is now a -1 instead of -2.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

OK, I still have NO CLUE how this is supposed to work. Tell you what - give me an example. We'll call him Dnorg. Dnorg is a 90 STR Brick. He wants to have four arms.

 

All but one will be the "off hand".

 

Each hand will be capable pf punching for 18d6 (ie they have access to his 90 STR). For similicity, we'll assume each hand can grab or lift at 90 STR as well.

 

He gets no bonuses to manipulation or reach.

 

Please show me the build, assuming he has already paid for the full 90 STR as his STR stat.

 

Having shown me that build, let's build a variant who has no handedness concerns, and furthermore uses your Reach rules to quadruple the number of targets he can affect, without increasing his reach from his body from the default.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

Dnorg is a 90 STR Brick.

He wants to have four arms.

All but one will be the "off hand".

Each hand will be capable pf punching for 18d6 (ie they have access to his 90 STR).

For simplicity, we'll assume each hand can grab or lift at 90 STR as well.

He gets no bonuses to manipulation or reach.

Please show me the build, assuming he has already paid for the full 90 STR as his STR stat.

Four Limbs

Borrowed STR 90 (72 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x4 Limbs (+2), Handedness (One Limb: -1), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*4)+2)*(1+2)/(1+|-1+-1|) = 222/3 = 74 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 154 Points

 

Having shown me that build' date=' let's build a variant who has no handedness concerns, and furthermore uses your Limbs rules to quadruple the number of targets he can affect, without increasing his reach from his body from the default.[/quote']

16 Limbs

Borrowed STR 90 (288 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x16 Limbs (+4), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*16)+2)*(1+4)/(1+|-1|) = 1450/2 = 725 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 805 Points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

Four Limbs

Borrowed STR 90 (72 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x4 Limbs (+2), Handedness (One Limb: -1), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*4)+2)*(1+2)/(1+|-1+-1|) = 222/3 = 74 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 154 Points

 

16 Limbs

Borrowed STR 90 (288 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x16 Limbs (+4), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*16)+2)*(1+4)/(1+|-1|) = 1450/2 = 725 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 805 Points

 

So it costs 74 extra points to have four limbs with which to use my 90Strength that I already paid 80 points for. Does that seem reasonable? How much will it cost to just have two arms that can use my 90 STR?

 

The second example isn't what I asked for - he should still have four limbs, not 16. I think that would be as follows:

 

Borrowed STR 90 (72 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x4 Limbs (+2), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*4)+2)*(1+3)/(1+|-1|) = 222/2 = 111 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 191 Points

 

So it costs 37 extra points to eliminate the Handedness problem.

 

Step 2:

 

What does it cost for the character to have two limbs, rather than four, under the first approach, since it appears your default is "characters have no limbs"? IOW, how much does this model add to the cost of a standard Brick with a 90 STR? [Maybe this structure will appeal to those who feel STR is much too cheap.]

 

 

What can the first approach character do that the two armed character cannot do? IOW, what is the benefit of purchasing the additional two arms?

 

What can the second approach character do that the first approach character cannot? IOW, what does he get for his 37 points paid?

[Tauman.EXE]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

Well I has to admitt that I didn't read through thw whole post, so mayby I missed a finess. But as far as i know Extra limbs should be bought with the extra limb power (and possibly with extra power with OIF to simulate their special capabilities) and independent limb should be bought with the duplication power. Why wouldn't duplication work instead of this power?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

So it costs 74 extra points to have four limbs with which to use my 90Strength that I already paid 80 points for. Does that seem reasonable? How much will it cost to just have two arms that can use my 90 STR?

No. You are paying 74 Extra Points to have Four Arms with which you can use without penalty simultaneously in a single phase. That's technically 90 STR x 4. Seems rather cheap to me, but what do I know?

 

Two Arms costs you.... nothing. That's what the system gives you for free. I never said that the Human Template wasn't the default and that you had to pay for it. I was simply showing what the Human Template would cost if you had to pay for it.

 

The second example isn't what I asked for - he should still have four limbs, not 16. I think that would be as follows:

 

Borrowed STR 90 (72 Points), 1" Reach (2 Points), x4 Limbs (+2), Restricted Manipulation: None (-1)

(((90/5)*4)+2)*(1+3)/(1+|-1|) = 222/2 = 111 Points

90 STR = 80 Points

Total Cost: 191 Points

 

So it costs 37 extra points to eliminate the Handedness problem.

How much do you think it should cost to eliminate Handedness for Normal Limbs, or in this case of Four Limbs. Remember, I'm not saying these values are set in stone. This is why I like discussing these things with you. You're a number cruncher who has a better feel for the cost of things than I do.

 

Perhaps Handedness should be +1/4 and +1/2 for the utility they give. Hmmm..

 

What does it cost for the character to have two limbs' date=' rather than four, under the first approach, since it appears your default is "characters have no limbs"? IOW, how much does this model add to the cost of a standard Brick with a 90 STR? [Maybe this structure will appeal to those who feel STR is much too cheap.']

Already answered this above. Sorry for the confusion.

 

This method allows for the GM to choose what the default template is for Limbs. So it offers more flexibility for the GM and hopefully more consistency for the cost vs utility of the Limbs themselves. Not to mention that the GM can tweak the cost/value formula to fit what he think it should be.

 

What can the first approach character do that the two armed character cannot do? IOW' date=' what is the benefit of purchasing the additional two arms?[/quote']

Already answered that above. Have I messed up the description in the original post so badly that the benefits are obscured?

 

Maybe you can help me with that.

 

However, to put it simply, the offhand penalties should apply to all tasks attempted with those limbs (sweeps, autofire, independent actions, and so forth).

 

Those with four limbs will suffer no penalties/restrictions with interacting with four targets while a character with two limbs will.

 

What value you think having these penalties removed will guide what value the advantage is, so it is up to you.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

No. You are paying 74 Extra Points to have Four Arms with which you can use without penalty simultaneously in a single phase. That's technically 90 STR x 4. Seems rather cheap to me' date=' but what do I know?[/quote']

 

So does that mean that, under your system, a character with two arms gets to use his 90 STR twice in a single phase? That seems like a substantial enhancement to the two armed Brick (or Martial Artist) over, say, a mentalist or energy projector.

 

Two Arms costs you.... nothing. That's what the system gives you for free. I never said that the Human Template wasn't the default and that you had to pay for it. I was simply showing what the Human Template would cost if you had to pay for it.

 

That being the case, why is your pricing for four arms starting from a base level of 0 limbs and costing points for use of STR with each of the four limbs? You get two for free only if you stay with the default?

 

How much do you think it should cost to eliminate Handedness for Normal Limbs' date=' or in this case of Four Limbs. Remember, I'm not saying these values are set in stone. This is why I like discussing these things with you. You're a number cruncher who has a better feel for the cost of things than I do.[/quote']

 

9 points. 3 penalty skill levels to offset all off hand penalties. Written up in the Talents section as "Ambidexterity". The existing system works just fine. The value of Handedness doesn't vary with STR any more than the value of skill levels with a punch, or added DEX, varies with STR.

 

This method allows for the GM to choose what the default template is for Limbs.

 

The existing system does not preclude the GM from deciding the default is fur arms, allowing anyone with less to take a Disadvantage and anyone with more to pay for Extra Limbs.

 

So it offers more flexibility for the GM and hopefully more consistency for the cost vs utility of the Limbs themselves.

 

Actually, it forces the isue that Extra Limbs create Extra Attacks for those who fight with STR. However, let's assume my character has a 12d6 EB which he fires from his hands. Applying your logic of Extra Limbs, shouldn't he be able to fire multiple EB's if he has extra hands? Does this now mean he must apply the same rules to both STR and his EB? What if he has:

 

(a) Several different powers each of which is fired from his hands

 

( a Multipower to hold a varety of attacks fired from his hands?

 

© What if his MP also holds some defensive powers?

 

(d) What if he has an Attacks Only VPP instead?

 

(e) What if it's a VPP not restricted to attacks?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

THE EXAMPLE

 

Thinking on this further, any character with a Damage Aura should be looking at having Extra Limbs.

 

"I am POISON MILLIPEDE MAN!"

 

1d6 Drain, any two physical stats (+1/2), 0 end (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) - 40 AP/40RP

 

Reach - 0" = 1 point (minimum cost)

x1,024 limbs +(10) = 11 points

 

If you touch him, you take one Drain attack. But when he Grabs you, he gets 1,024 attacks, each of which will Drain 1d6 from 2 physical stats.

 

He'll also buy +30" leaping - 30 points

Accurate Leaping +5 points

 

+5 OCV w/ Grab for Damage Aura - 10 points

 

That's 96 points spent - over 250 left for defenses, skills and characteristics. Assuming he has a 20 DEX, he has an 11 OCV for those Grabs. Even if the opponent is DCV 15, he'll hit with almost 100 shots, statistcially speaking (and we'd better just let him have the statistical average number of hits - rolling 3d6 1,024 times will slow the game down otherwise...). Even if he needs a 3 to hit, he'll land 4 or 5 hits on an average 1,024 attempts. If he needs a 3, he may as well shift his stats drained to DEX and SPD - that should make it easier to hit next time!

 

Sure, he can't maintain his Grabs, but that was never the point, was it?

 

THE ISSUE

 

Because your Limbs rules focus exclusively on STR, any character who can deliver touch-based attacks which aren't STR gain a huge advantage multiplying their attacks through multiple limbs under this approach.

 

HKA, Drain, Transfer, Damage Aura, Hand Attack, Martial Arts - the sky's the limit!

 

You've truned Extra limbs from a flavour power with limited benefits to the Must Have ability since it quickly multiplies available attack actions. Poor 12 speed 2 armed guy - compared to Millipede Man's 2 SPD with 1,024 attacks per phase, he moves in slow motion!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Power: Limbs

 

A further thought - how does that multiple purchase of STR interact with adjustment powers that affect STR? If someone uses an Aid, Drain or Transfer on a character with multiple limbs, each bought with their own separate STR, what happens? What if the character has Borrowed STR?