New Mechanic: Manipulation

[schir1964]

Manipulation (Special)

Mainpulation grants a bonus to handling objects. Each level purchased grants a +1 to all tasks that require manipulation. Therefore, handling objects that would normally have a penalty of -1 can now be handled normally. A character can only manipulate a single object at any one time.

 

Example: An object that has a -1 Penalty for manipulation due to size (small or large) can be handled without penalty (no task roll required) with one level of Manipulation. An object that has a -2 Penalty for manipulation due to situation could be handled without penalty (no task roll required) with two levels of Manipulation.

 

Cost: 5 Points Per Level

 

Modifiers

 

Advantages

Increased Number Of Objects (+1 Per Doubling): The character may manipulate double the number of objects at any one time.

 

Limitations

Restricted Class Of Objects (-1/4 to -2): Manipulation bonus is restricted to affecting specified class of objects (example: small objects, large objects, slippery objects, and so forth).

[SpydirShellX]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

Isn't this just limited DEX? Or even just Penalty Skill Levels?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

Isn't this just limited DEX? Or even just Penalty Skill Levels?

Let me preface my answer with the following just in case this may have been elaborated on in Hero Supplements. I have the Hero 5th Edition core book, not revised. I only have a couple of the supplements (Vehicle, Champions, and Ultimate Martial Artist), so I don't know what's been expounded upon beyond those.

 

DEX and Manipulation may overlap somewhat, but are very different. The core book only mentions Manipulation in the roughest of terms. It's mentioned for Telekinesis. There is Rough and Fine Manipulation which really doesn't scale at all. In both instances, DEX is not mentioned, so it seems that at least for Telekinesis, DEX and Manipulation aren't the same.

 

Anyway, Manipulation could be expressed as a form of Penalty Skill Level since it functions in the same way... except it can serve as bonus for tasks that don't have a penalty by default. So perhaps it might be more akin to a specialized skill. Anyway, since Hero doesn't explain how manipulation works in game specifically, I decided to offer my own mechanic for those that might find it useful for games that would require more detail in this area.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

Can you provide some concrete examples of how this would apply in-game? What types of task currently impose "manipulation penalties" or would be subject to "manipulation bonuses"?

 

To the doubling issue, how many objects can a character manipulate as a default?

 

You mention the TK issue of Fine Manipulation, but your proposal doesn't provide for fine and "gross" manipulation.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

Can you provide some concrete examples of how this would apply in-game? What types of task currently impose "manipulation penalties" or would be subject to "manipulation bonuses"?

All by GM Permission

Climbing: May serve as a bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Contortionist: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Demolitions: May serve as bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Fast Draw: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Forgery: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Gambling: May serve as a bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Lockpicking: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Paramedics: May serve as a bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Riding: May serve as a bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Science Skill: May serve as a bonus to Complimentary Rolls.

Sleight Of Hand: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Stealth: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

Two Weapon Fighting: May serve as a bonus to Skill Rolls.

 

To the doubling issue' date=' how many objects can a character manipulate as a default?[/quote']

One. Just like it says in the description.

 

You mention the TK issue of Fine Manipulation' date=' but your proposal doesn't provide for fine and "gross" manipulation.[/quote']

Fine/Gross Manipulation aren't defined very well and don't scale. Therefore, I went with simple Bonus/Penalty type mechanic that does scale. That way, the GM can define what is Fine/Gross for his campaign (he does anyway when he assigns penalties/bonuses for tasks).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

All by GM Permission

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Fine/Gross Manipulation aren't defined very well and don't scale. Therefore, I went with simple Bonus/Penalty type mechanic that does scale. That way, the GM can define what is Fine/Gross for his campaign (he does anyway when he assigns penalties/bonuses for tasks).

 

So, basically, I spend the points and then the GM decides what they're good for. I prefer a more objective approach. I think this would be better approached by simply buying skill levels and/or penalty levels with the skills your character's enhanced manipulation makes him better at.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

So' date=' basically, I spend the points and then the GM decides what they're good for. I prefer a more objective approach. I think this would be better approached by simply buying skill levels and/or penalty levels with the skills your character's enhanced manipulation makes him better at.[/quote']

Perhaps instead of by GM Permission, which is true regardless of the mechanic, I should have said, "Based On SFX".

 

If a character has +2 Manipulation (SFX: Large Hands for Holding Large Objects), it doesn't make sense that he would get to apply that +2 for Lockpicking.

 

So you should be happy with it now. (8^D)

Or better yet, why don't you just tell me how you would like it defined as far as applicability. I might just change it to match that. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

My first thought is that this is covered by skill levels: +1 with DEX based skills (5 points) possibly limited to 'only when manipulating objects relevant (-1/2). This is already well trodden ground in this thread

 

Object interaction is (probably) going to be more important in heroic games than superheroic where most objects used will have been bought and (presumably) the cost of manipulating them is inherent in the cost.

 

If we were going to have a manipulation power at all it should do something that cannot be so readily built by existing mechanics, some sort of enabling mechanism, perhaps: normally you need tools to pick a lock or perform surgery. The lack of tools might be expressed as a skill penalty or a prohibition on the skill use (you can't operate a computer without a computer, no matter how skilled you are ). For a single point you could assume the ability to use particular skills that require tools without a penalty: you could have a set of lockpicking fingernails or scalpel thumbs, or somesuch. This is somewhat problematic in a superheroic game, but, as indicated, would mainly be used for heroic games anyway.

 

The problem is that there are only so many mechanics that any given ability can interact with: basically you either change an action roll (skill roll, attack roll) or an effect roll (usually damage, if it is seperate from the action roll at all), so all you really need is a mechanic for modifying one or the other roll and you have done practically everything you can do mechanically in Hero: everything else is just where you apply the results to. This is oversimplyfying.

 

In terms, I can't see what this does that cannot be done with limited skill levels EXCEPT the ability to simultanously manipulate multiple objects.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

In terms' date=' I can't see what this does that cannot be done with limited skill levels EXCEPT the ability to simultanously manipulate multiple objects.[/quote']

And what mechanic do envision to allow this?

Skill Enhancer?

Something else?

 

These things I've proposed are not set in stone. If you think there might be a more direct way of handling this, please elaborate. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

And what mechanic do envision to allow this?

Skill Enhancer?

Something else?

 

These things I've proposed are not set in stone. If you think there might be a more direct way of handling this, please elaborate. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Well you could build it as a straight power, although I feel that the application is relatively limited. If you have a computer brain controlling a car factory it might need the ability to manipulate thousands of objects simultanously (or you build thousands of slave systems and a really impressive mind link), but as that would never be a character interaction problem I am not sure it is worth modelling. Most characters can manipulate, at most, as many objects as they have limbs and would probably be at a skill penalty on all attempts for more than one simultanously (sweep manipulation ). This then could probably also be dealt with by PSL or limited skill levels.

 

The number of objects you can manipulate is therefore a function of your available limbs and of your skill in performing each task, and, arguably, of the number of independent sensory organs you have available.

 

I really do hesistate to suggest extra limbs and DEX levels, but they seem to cover the bases.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Manipulation

 

My first thought is that this is covered by skill levels: +1 with DEX based skills (5 points) possibly limited to 'only when manipulating objects relevant (-1/2). This is already well trodden ground in this thread

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In terms, I can't see what this does that cannot be done with limited skill levels EXCEPT the ability to simultanously manipulate multiple objects.

 

And what mechanic do envision to allow this?

 

I really do hesistate to suggest extra limbs and DEX levels' date=' but they seem to cover the bases.[/quote']

 

I agree with Sean. The system already has the tools it needs to cover this, so an added mechanic adds complexity without material benefit.

 

Christopher, I have a tough time believing this mechanic is needed. Show me an example of something this readily handles that the existing rules can't accommodate and you may change my mind, but without such an example, I don't see any benefit to this exercise.