Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Yipes! *hides under keyboard* I didn't mean to imply that the effort wasn't worthwhile. I just wanted to make sure that the (obviously rather frustrating) process of figuring exact slipstream stats was important to your game (I've seen a friend get a mental block statting "flavor tech" and get so frustrated that he dropped the entire campaign). You're right' date=' we haven't met. I'm new here and I like to feel out some problems before diving in. Thus, the probe to see whether the extra detail was needed. I apologize if that came across wrong.[/quote']

 

I owe you an apology; the big thing here is that I've gotten a lot of dismissal, and very few real builds. I recognize that in many cases, the equipment has to directly reflect the design, and I've gotten no valid build suggestions (although I think that DR may have gotten closer).

 

Now that we've established that you do need accurate stats' date=' I'd like to take a stab at the technology. The way I see it, you'll need four components to fully describe a slipstream drive: How to get there, how to move while there, how to explain the variance, and how to power the drive.[/quote']

 

I'm going to put together a standard drive. Interestingly, the listed speed on a Halcyon class cruiser is 2.1 ly/day, which would make sense given that the total span of space isn't 144 LY, but closer to 400 LY. Then, a "short" hop is a couple of weeks and 20 - 30 LY, and a "long jump" of 6 months is 2x30 = 60x6; 360 LY. This of course raises the question (again) of how big is UNSC space? Is it more important to be consistent with what Halopedia says? I have 800 stars at maximum depth, and if Nyrath is right, as I said, that's 144 LY diameter.

 

First Component: Of course' date=' EDM, as others have stated. To create the "slipstream envelope" or portal into the slipstream.[/quote']

 

Right. Step One: jump. I've gone ahead and put an EDM slot in the multipower (see below). I've also given the Halcyon an FTL drive with 10 levels on it (3 LY/day), which I'm going to reduce to 2 LY/day for clarification's sake (in the same sense that I can legally reduce the total number of charges within the grouping).

 

EDM' date=' to corresponding location on a single plane (the slipstream) and back again - 22 active points. This is also where we'd add the side effect of the huge groundshaking explosion (see below). The side effect goes here because the explosion would only occur when entering or exiting slipstream within an atmosphere, so has nothing to do with the FTL component (see below). I'd hesitate to provide an actual limitation value for the side effect. It's huge, but so are the mass combat potentials.[/quote']

 

I'm wondering if there isn't a massive difficulty in making that jump in an atmosphere. It makes more sense that way, otherwise it WOULD be used more often. However, I think that there must be some penalty. If you leaf through the Star Trek Tech. Manual for TNG, it specifies that the keel of the Galaxy Class would collapse if it were over exposed to an atmosphere. I think that putting a CCS Battlecruiser in an Atmosphere has to have something associated with it; might just be that it'll collapse, might be an inability to successfully maneuver. Not sure yet.

 

Second Component: The faster-than-light travel within the slipstream.

 

This part of the drive system seems the most problematic. FTL is the way to go if you want to be strict about the speed. The only problem is when it comes to faster/slower slipstream drives, since two active points more or less represents a complete doubling (or halving) of speed. If you want that much difference between ship types, great! (maybe a massive generator can impel a battleship through the slipstream many times faster than a patrol ship's meager power output).

 

Like I said above, I'm going to treat this just like I would charges. In other words, instead of being a guaranteed doubling, you can spend the same points on Charges and chose from 16 - 32 rounds; same cost. Same thing here, with the break points (again, like charges) predefined. So I'm going to think outside of the box on this one a little bit. The size of the Halcyon Class is... 27 I think? Big, big ship.

 

The third component is the varience of speed in ships with equivalent drives. If you're willing to accept the "slipstream travel" suggestion above' date=' a simple solution would be to use a required aid power: Any slipstream drive must have an integrated Aid (succor) Slipstream Travel 1D6, 0 end (ends/resets when vessel leaves slipstream), persistent, No conscious control (ship crew will know it is active (activates when entering slipstream), but cannot choose to surpress the aid to gain a more "predictable" transit time. Effectively, this will add 0"-3" to the slipstream travel power. (At most, an extra 0.109% of a light year per hour of travel). The aid is an added power to "Slipstream Travel" and is rolled as soon as the vessel enters slipstream. As part of the power's special effect, the amout of speed gain is unquantifiable using the available technology.[/quote']

 

This is actually a REALLY interesting idea, although I also like DR's idea; despite that as far as I can tell, humans don't do the calibration; it's the shipboard AI that handles all those details. Building Cortana (and other sample AIs, such as Joyeuse, Durandal, etc.) I'm also going to put together a "standard" ship board AI; the way I've designed MJOLNIR armor allows it to carry an AI as a "follower" -- which is critical to making the game work.

 

Fourth Component: The power source - My recommendation for the power source is a dedicated' date=' but very small, Endurance Reserve. Why small? Well, as outlined above, the Slipstream Travel and Aid (Succor) cost no endurance, so the only END cost involved is from the EDM. This might indicate a momentum based drive, or that it takes a minimal amount of energy to propel a body in slipspace (lacking laws of physical mass, inertia, and such). The EDM itself could be bought with increased endurance to make a jump cost more than just a few END each time. As to recharging, give the END Reserve's Recovery the limitations Extra Time (recovers each hour or day, whichever's more appropriate - I have no idea how long a ship in HALO drifts between jumps), and Only Recovers when not in Slipspace (-1).[/quote']

 

Or charges. My reasearch hasn't helped with this; I'm not sure if the engines have to recover (delayed time/extra time, etc.) so I'm farming for more ideas here.

 

As to the inaccuracy of Slipstream navigation' date=' that may be best described as a feature of the Slipstream "terrain" - sort of like a permanent "cloudy night" that provides penalties to navigation rolls.[/quote']

 

This is ALSO a good idea, but it's very similar (again) to what DR was saying, so I'm starting to see some really decent trends coming through with all of this that will give me some really solid design options. I like the idea of the terrain creating a problem in and of itself, that's VERY groovy to me.

 

One last note: Using FTL or an equivalent movement power as above doesn't really represent a limit on "distance of Slipstream jumps" - it's more of a continuous fly till you get there form. If ships need to make multiple jumps' date=' is it due to the drive capabilities? If so, you might drop the FTL entirely and go with a mega-scaled Teleport with the extra time limitations. You could still use an Aid power to introduce a little variance to the time/distance traveled. If it's not based on the capabilities of the drive, do the ships have to drop out of the Slipstream to re-orient themselves? Perhaps the farther travelled within the Slipstream, the larger the Navigation penalties to determine what the proper point is to leave the Slipstream. A prudent captain might make several jumps to ensure the most accurate entry point, while a more foolish or desperate commander might use a single jump and risk dropping back into "real" space a few light years away from his intended destination. Hope this is useful.[/quote']

 

I'm wondering if I shouldn't put Costs Endurance on the FTL drive, thusly forcing it to have a dedicated END Reserve (Engine) that will make more sense overall. Overall these are GREAT suggestions. I'm still working on the engine, but I'm a lot closer now. I'm also wondering if I shouldn't leave the destructive capability OUT, and leave it as a VG plot point, rather than build in a 12d6 10 mile AOE.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I just thought of another way to handle the variance in times between various trips through Slipstream. I would like to attempt to understand a few things first.

 

First, is a pilot's skill a factor in this, or just the technology being used? In other words, the skill improve travel time, or is it just for finding the destination? Or is the time variance is completely random characteristic of slipstream?

 

You know, after thinking about this for a great deal of time, I'm going to say that this is something handled by the ship board AI, and said AI has to be built for each individual machine. I have no idea how to handle that; it'll take me a long time to get those properly designed, though. Certainly, though, I want to do a basic "core AI" for every ship, but i'm going to need to work out what I want them capable of, and then maybe develop a "star chart" or time/distance thing to have the whole mess make sense. I have the Star Trek star charts which I'll probably use; although I think the Orion Arm is comparatively small. It's interesting in terms of measurement; anyone know exactly how big the Orion Arm is?

 

Second' date=' what is the contributing factor to some ships being "faster" than others? Is it pilot skill or the technology of the engines, or perhaps a combination of the two?[/quote']

 

I'm liking the idea of the AI making the skill roll, doing all the math, and then having the variance contribute directly to the screwiness of the jump itself.

 

In any case, here's a possibility of pilot skill is a major factor: Use EDM to enter slipstream/S-F space. Navigation (S-F Space) is required to go anywhere at all with any amount of control or accuracy. Arriving at the correct destination requires a roll. The speed at which you travel is also determined by a separate roll. How fast you arrive is determined by how much you succeed or fail this roll. Decide on a base time per LY and modify how fast the ship actually moves based on a scale like below:

 

Succeed Exactly = 4 LY/Day

Succeed by 1 = 4.5 LY/Day

Succeed by 2 = 5 LY/Day

Succeed by 3 = 5.5 LY/Day and so on...

 

Fail by 1 = 3.5 LY/Day

Fail by 2 = 3 LY/Day

Fail by 3 = 2.5 LY/Day and so on, min 1 LY/Day

 

This way you can simulate some ships being faster than others by having build in Navigation Bonuses or a good nav comp to use as a Complimentary Skill, and certain races that are just better at navigating S-F space by having bonuses to that Skill.

 

 

I think this has a lot of potential as well. The direction this is really going is a total revamp of the Space Flight design; this is going to turn into a subset of rules built within HERO that define space flight for this game, specifically (HERO:CE).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

BEHOLD! My first crack at this. Y'all fiddle with this and lemme know whachoo think.

 

3 Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension) (20 Active Points); OAF Immobile (-2), Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -1 1/2), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Difficult to Operate (-1/4), Trackable Path (UNSC Vehicles Leave a Traceable Slipspace Path; -1/4)

 

9 Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine (2.1 LY/day): Faster-Than-Light Travel (1 Light Years/day) (28 Active Points); OAF Immobile (-2), Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -1 1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Variable Exit Time; -1), Requires A PS: Slipspace Navigation Roll (-1/2), Difficult to Operate (-1/4), Cannot Move Backwards (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Linked (Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine; -1/4)

 

I linked the two together; technically the AI should handle the calculations, but in some cases (HALO 1, 2 & 3) the AI is off ship and cannot handle them; in that instance, calculations default to the pilots and "Ship's Computer." I'm still designing the Halcyon which is taking longer than I thought. Huge, huge ship with lots of options.

 

If anyone is curious, here are the armaments the ship calls for; I'm not sure if these will work. But they're up for review as well.

 

154 MAC Cannon [spinal Mount]: Killing Attack - Ranged 14d6 (Resistant Piercing 5), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (731 Active Points); OAF Immobile (-2), Limited Arc Of Fire (One hex row; Only on same horizontal level; -1), 256 clips of 1 Charge (Drum Replacable by Crew at a UNSC Facility; Increased Reloading Time; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

194 Archer Missile Pod System: Killing Attack - Ranged 10d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +1) (581 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Travels 200" per Segment, taking a minimum of 1 Segment to Reach its Target; -1/2), 32 Charges (Must be Reloaded at a UNSC Facility; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

NOTE: There's also an allusion in Halopedia that the Covenant have Pinpoint Accurate Jumps -- which means the UNSC may NOT have PPA. Lacking that would be an additional limitation, a second RSR (Exit Vector). So that lends additional credence to what DR was saying originally. Still plowing through this, but I wanted to write something down before my head blew up. And as DeTenibras said, it's more important to put it out there even if it isn't 'perfect' rather than scrap the concept out of raw frustration.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

NOTE: There's also an allusion in Halopedia that the Covenant have Pinpoint Accurate Jumps -- which means the UNSC may NOT have PPA. Lacking that would be an additional limitation' date=' a second RSR (Exit Vector). So that lends additional credence to what DR was saying originally. Still plowing through this, but I wanted to write something down before my head blew up. And as DeTenibras said, it's more important to put it out there even if it isn't 'perfect' rather than scrap the concept out of raw frustration.[/quote']

 

Earth's average orbital speed: 29.783 km/s

Earth's mean radius: 6,372.797 km

 

So, if you are shooting for emerging into an Earth orbit at about 250 Km above the surface, and miss mot the place but the time of arrival by 3.7 minutes, you might just wind up in the Earth's Core instead, to a very warm reception.

 

It's spacetime after all.