Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

[Thia Halmades]

Okay you cool cats;

 

This is officially a Star HERO question, however, I'm placing it here for maximum exposure. Here's what I'm asking from all you hepcats out there on the dance floor. According to the canon of the HALO videogames, there are a few things to know about moving in subspace:

 

1) It seems to take time, but we don't know how much

 

2) They travel, but it's unclear how far, and how long it takes (this is the hard part)

 

3) It may be multiple jumps (Battlestar Galactica) or it may be a single jump. I'm assuming it actually changes based on the size of the ship. Duration, however, is sketchy, i.e., it's inconsistent among the novels and the games don't tell us how long these things take.

 

4) So I need a power design (I'm currently using TPort/MScale 1" = 1LY) and a reasonable design on the END Reserve, or the ENGINE. What makes sense, size wise? I don't want it capable of more than a couple of jumps before the engines need to cool (regain END), and it seems that a jump takes a lot out of a ship's power.

 

5) FYI, there's a rather massive Side Effect if you Jump near anything -- The Truth and Reconciliation annihilated half of New Mombasa on the way out.

 

So I'm curious how you would build the TPort/EDM/Silly Amount of Flight and the Engine that powers it. Help me understand how to best do the math, since looking at the examples in TUV, I'm just not quite getting how all these things are supposed to fit together.

 

Thanks as always,

 

~DEM/TH

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Okay you cool cats;

 

This is officially a Star HERO question, however, I'm placing it here for maximum exposure. Here's what I'm asking from all you hepcats out there on the dance floor. According to the canon of the HALO videogames, there are a few things to know about moving in subspace:

 

1) It seems to take time, but we don't know how much

 

2) They travel, but it's unclear how far, and how long it takes (this is the hard part)

 

3) It may be multiple jumps (Battlestar Galactica) or it may be a single jump. I'm assuming it actually changes based on the size of the ship. Duration, however, is sketchy, i.e., it's inconsistent among the novels and the games don't tell us how long these things take.

 

[snip]

 

So I'm curious how you would build the TPort/EDM/Silly Amount of Flight and the Engine that powers it. Help me understand how to best do the math, since looking at the examples in TUV, I'm just not quite getting how all these things are supposed to fit together.

 

The first thing I will tell you: decide, for the context of your game, how you want to handle those things. The answers to these are unclear to the player of HALO, but the GM of Combat Evolved needs to know them, so decide. Once you've decided what the answers are, then you can figure out how to build them, but not before.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Right. I already have an idea, but i'm curious what the OTHER ideas are, and how Engines in general might work. So I still need help here, Chris.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

According to the canon of the HALO videogames, there are a few things to know about moving in subspace:

 

1) It seems to take time, but we don't know how much

 

Take a guess. I presume it is short enough so that the characters in the games/novels don't appreciably age from doing a lot of them? Also, some ships might be "faster" than others, and thus able to go further in the same amount of time. I'd suggest picking a number as a minimum "speed", and go from there. Perhaps a week per Light Year, for instance.

 

2) They travel' date=' but it's unclear how far, and how long it takes (this is the hard part)[/quote']

 

Do the games/books mention any real-world stars in our neighborhood? We know where they are fairly well, so it's possible to figure out the distances between each. Two pertinent questions are: Does anything meaningful happen during this traveling? Can ship-to-ship combat happen during this traveling?

 

3) It may be multiple jumps (Battlestar Galactica) or it may be a single jump. I'm assuming it actually changes based on the size of the ship. Duration' date=' however, is sketchy, i.e., it's inconsistent among the novels and the games don't tell us how long these things take.[/quote']

 

Does it matter if it takes 1 jump or 3 to go from point 'A' to point 'B', presuming that the overall travel time is roughly equal? It seems you are considering having two different variables in the FTL drives. A "How Far" as well as a "How Fast". That tends to complicate the designing a bit IMO.

 

4) So I need a power design (I'm currently using TPort/MScale 1" = 1LY) and a reasonable design on the END Reserve' date=' or the ENGINE. What makes sense, size wise? I don't want it capable of more than a couple of jumps before the engines need to cool (regain END), and it seems that a jump takes a lot out of a ship's power.[/quote']

 

Teleportation 1" + Megascale(1"=1 LY; +3½) is a measly 9 points, and would cost only 1 END. Is the END Reserve the Ship's power (i.e., other powers also draw from it), or is it meant to represent a "cooldown/recharge" period for just the FTL drive? It might be possible to build the FTL drive with Lockout, to represent the fact that it takes lots of the ship's power.

 

Is the ship limited to just 1", or does it have more? If it's only 1" (and 1" = 1 LY), then it would take 5 jumps just to go to our nearest stellar companion, Alpha Centauri. It would take *lots* more to get anywhere truly meaningful.

 

5) FYI' date=' there's a rather massive Side Effect if you Jump near anything -- The Truth and Reconciliation annihilated half of New Mombasa on the way out.[/quote']

 

That's a hell of a Side Effect -- but I need to know what New Mombasa *is* to gauge it more accurately. It sounds really devastating -- has this effect been used offensively in the past? Is there any impact to the ship when doing that? Does it happen regardless of Leaving or Arriving? Would it have the same effect on nearby ships? Why is the answer 42?

 

So I'm curious how you would build the TPort/EDM/Silly Amount of Flight and the Engine that powers it. Help me understand how to best do the math' date=' since looking at the examples in TUV, I'm just not quite getting how all these things are supposed to fit together.[/quote']

 

Did you consider FTL Travel? Perhaps with Costs END(-½)?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Do the games/books mention any real-world stars in our neighborhood? We know where they are fairly well' date=' so it's possible to figure out the distances between each. Two pertinent questions are: Does anything meaningful happen during this traveling? Can ship-to-ship combat happen during this traveling?[/quote']

 

Not that I've seen yet.

 

Does it matter if it takes 1 jump or 3 to go from point 'A' to point 'B'' date=' presuming that the overall travel time is roughly equal? It seems you are considering having two different variables in the FTL drives. A "How Far" as well as a "How Fast". That tends to complicate the designing a bit IMO.[/quote']

 

This is really the part where I'm stuck; I'm fairly certain that Reach is a fictional planet, but you can never be sure with Bungie. Sometimes it's off the top of their heads, sometimes it's real. And beyond that, they made a "blind jump" from Reach to HALO 04. However...

 

Teleportation 1" + Megascale(1"=1 LY; +3½) is a measly 9 points, and would cost only 1 END. Is the END Reserve the Ship's power (i.e., other powers also draw from it), or is it meant to represent a "cooldown/recharge" period for just the FTL drive? It might be possible to build the FTL drive with Lockout, to represent the fact that it takes lots of the ship's power.

 

Is the ship limited to just 1", or does it have more? If it's only 1" (and 1" = 1 LY), then it would take 5 jumps just to go to our nearest stellar companion, Alpha Centauri. It would take *lots* more to get anywhere truly meaningful.

 

THIS is what I'm looking for -- I'm still trying to find out how far a ship can jump from point to point. I've emailed the web master and scoured Halopedia but I can't seem to find a halfway decent answer. That's why I'm looking at you cats to see what your thoughts are, if you have a better grasp on distance than I do. I quite literally can't get my head around distance (which is why I keep using references).

 

That's a hell of a Side Effect -- but I need to know what New Mombasa *is* to gauge it more accurately. It sounds really devastating -- has this effect been used offensively in the past? Is there any impact to the ship when doing that? Does it happen regardless of Leaving or Arriving? Would it have the same effect on nearby ships? Why is the answer 42?

 

Well duh. Because that's what 6 x 9 is. But to answer the question:

 

HALO 2, at the end of what we'll call "Act 1" the initial attack on Earth (with a fraction of the fleet power that leveled Reach) is repelled, and the Prophet of Regret bails out with his ship still in the atmosphere. When he makes that jump, he takes out half the city of New Mombasa. We also know that people can be tracked from point to point because of "the hole they rip in subspace." Which is a whole separate problem.

 

And to my knowledge, that's the first time it wound up being used as an attack. The SE seemed to waste at LEAST one square mile, possibly much more. I'll replay the scenario and see if I can give you a clearer image.

 

 

 

Did you consider FTL Travel? Perhaps with Costs END(-½)?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

HA! FOUND IT!

 

Excerpt:

This new engine allowed ships to tunnel into "the Slipstream" (also called "Slipspace"). Technically called "Shaw-Fujikawa Space"[1] (after the scientists who proved its existence), Slipspace is a domain with alternate physical laws, allowing faster-than-light travel without relativistic side-effects (much like hyperspace from the popular Star Wars movies). Faster-than-light travel is not instantaneous; "short" jumps routinely take up to two months, and "long" jumps can last six months or more, which is why most UNSC ships have cryo chambers.

Slipspace can be thought of as our Universe (which, technically, it is) but with a greater number of dimensions. Our plane of existence is thought to have four dimensions (up-down, front-back, side-to-side, and time), but Cortana states in Halo: First Strike that Slipspace is an eleven-dimensional spacetime. Slipspace is currently theorised (in 2552) as a "tangle" of our plane's dimensions, rather like taking the classic "flat sheet" used to represent gravity and crumpling it up into a ball, therby creating extra dimensions and shorter spaces between points. As such, the physical laws of our plane (eg. relativity) are accentuated and distorted.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Okay, I've traded PMs with Nyrath. I gave him the basics I pulled from Halopedia: that we (humanity) take up the "Orion Arm" and have roughly (before the Covenant War) 800 colonized planets. He was kind enough to do some basic math for me and came up with a human empire roughly 144 LY in diameter/72 LY radius. So I'm wondering if the classic 1 LY/wk formula wouldn't work, with a "GM variance" as the text also says, because Shin-Fujikawa slip space is 11 dimensions, and not 4, it's nearly impossible to properly coordinate assaults.

 

The longest jumps are about 6 months (~24 weeks) and that's... well, that's a hike. It also works to dramatically recreate the need to cross space/time to accomplish an objective. I may bump it up to 2 LY/week (making a 6 month jump enough to get across about a third of known space).

 

Curious what y'all's thoughts are.

[Cancer]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I guess the last question is: what triggers the nasty side effect? If it's popping out of slipspace in the same place as an appreciable amount of matter (i.e., you 'port in on top of something) ... that's just not going to happen very much. Space (even busy interplanetary space, like our astreroid belt) is real empty.

 

Another alternative is that you can't jump in or out if the gravity (equivalently, "space-time curvature") is too high ... this is the flavor of a lot of stadard scifi star drives. Gravity is pretty easy to compute, and it can give you some interesting low-gravity keyholes to shoot for in planetry systems. Just don't miss....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Oh, to answer the second question a little more accurately, the Slipspace jump that The High Prophet of Regret made leveled an entire city; all of New Mombasa got taken out in the slipspace rift. I'm guessing it can't be less than a 10 mile radius, the damage is tremendous and the city is leveled. I'm trying to find something comparable (Greater LA, perhaps) to get a gauge. Anyone know how big LA is?

[Silbeg]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Just as an idea, you could potentially handle this as EDM... the idea of jumping from one space-time to another (Slipstream). Now, perhaps distances are condensed in Slipstream, you would just need to determine the ratio.

 

Example, if 1AU (normal) maps to 1LY in subspace, then the ratio of disatince in this space is approximately 75000:1.

 

Really, then, you would need to know the speeds in normal space of certain ships to determine what the real ratio is.

 

Then, again, with a hefty dose of "handwavium", you could separate distance from travel time. Perhaps some "paths" are easier, and easier paths take less time. Thus, it might take 2 months to jump to Star A which is 4 LY away, but for some reason it only takes 3 weeks to jump to Star B, which is 32 LY away.

 

This makes systems "closer" not based on physical proximity, but travel time.

 

 

All in all, though, I would probably go with some sort of FTL for ease.

[Cancer]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I don't know how big Los Angeles is, but Seattle is about 20 miles (north-south) by about 6 miles (east-west). That's just Seattle itself. The 'burbs extend rather outside that.

 

EDIT: How big was the ship in that story? Destroying only a city sounds like just the kinetic energy of the ship is released at the point of destruction (like an asteroid impact), and you're not converting the entire ship mass to unbound energetic particles, which would be many orders of magnitude more energy.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I think the massive damage from Regret's slipspace jump was purely because it was initiated inside an atmosphere.

 

Which is probably why the power FTL travel specifically says it can't be used inside an atmosphere.

 

It seems like the jump from Earth to Installation 05 took very little time. Maybe it was because Regret generated the slipspace rupture and has much better engines than UNSC ships, or maybe the jumps take less time than we think.

 

Or maybe, as JMS put it, they just move at "the speed of plot".

 

Kelcyron

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I don't know how big Los Angeles is, but Seattle is about 20 miles (north-south) by about 6 miles (east-west). That's just Seattle itself. The 'burbs extend rather outside that.

 

EDIT: How big was the ship in that story? Destroying only a city sounds like just the kinetic energy of the ship is released at the point of destruction (like an asteroid impact), and you're not converting the entire ship mass to unbound energetic particles, which would be many orders of magnitude more energy.

 

The High Prophet of Regret is mostly likely a CCS Battlecruiser, which is the same class as the Truth and Reconciliation. Those ships are about the size of an SISD -- 1700m long, 800m wide, 250m high. Two sub light engines drive it, although I'm unfamiliar still with precisely how they handle time/distance across slip space.

 

In answer to Silbeg's question, the nature of Slipspace is that it's an 11 dimension collapsed section of space; however, while space is warped, it seems to still follow some rules, although (as I noted) there's some variance in time & distance that does allow things to move at the speed of plot. More specifically, though, while I freely acknowledge that at times it's very helpful, it's also critical to have at least some sort of foundation to build from, so if the author/GM chooses to rewrite the movement design, they at least can do so from some sort of critical foundation/point of reference.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I love reading about funky space travel methods... especially when someone tried to reinvent hyperspace.

 

Anyway, from the best I understand, the unpredictable nature of the slipstream is a plot device, and thus anyone travels through it moves at the speed of plot. All you really need worry about if a flat charge to cover anyone who can travel through it. EDM was mentioned above, and I'd agree it's the best choice for a plot-drive method of FTL travel. Once that's established, you can make a really complicated chart using random rolls that determine what affects travel, the number of "jumps" to reach a destination, possible malfunctions, etc... and then pretend to roll your desired results behind the GM screen to further along adventure.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Ah ah, but but.

 

ONE of the mechanics I'm using for a separate game is the EDM model because I have things that live in Sub-Space. For this, however, nothing "lives" in Shaw-Fujikawa space that anyone knows of. Under this model, S-F Space is a special effect to get the PCs the Handwavium required to travel from point to point.

 

And true, it certainly seems that the jump to Installation 05 took very, very little time, but I submit that this is more a relativistic side effect of the game's pacing.

 

Also, it's possible (and I like this idea) that Covie drives might propel a ship at "SF 4" (4 LY/wk) or possibly faster. Hmm. I need a term to describe speed/distance over Slipspace other than "Warp." The number at the end should "roughly equate" in SFX terms (literally in game terms, for now) to the weeks/ly distance equation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I still think you should use EDM. A Handwavium alloy Plot-Drive should cost the same for everyone who can use it, so long as everyone is subject to identical limitations and advantages.

 

Let me ask you this. Will there ever be a race using this S-F Stream of Slippery Warp Thing? Will it ever matter if one ship is faster than another? If not, then you need not worry, or pay, for speed. Set a cost and charge it. Easy. Done.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Yes, actually, one of the main points of the design is that ships move at different speeds and will even arrive at different times if using the same speed. It's also established that Covenant ships are faster and more precise than UNSC ships. And, that you can track someone's trail through Shaw-Fujikawa space.

 

So it is critical in terms of military strategy (should people want to go that route) and in terms of mechanical design that each ship move at the appropriate speed. I'm thinking of going in scales of XLY/wk as I said, and ball parking the covie as twice as fast to start with.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Yes' date=' actually, one of the main points of the design is that ships move at different speeds and will even arrive at different times if using the same speed. It's also established that Covenant ships are faster and more precise than UNSC ships. And, that you can track someone's trail through Shaw-Fujikawa space.[/quote']

 

That would seem to give the possibility of two ships of identical speed, one following the trail of the other ship, yet arriving *before* the ship it was following!

 

So it is critical in terms of military strategy (should people want to go that route) and in terms of mechanical design that each ship move at the appropriate speed. I'm thinking of going in scales of XLY/wk as I said' date=' and ball parking the covie as twice as fast to start with.[/quote']

 

The just use FTL. It's cheap, has a specific mechanic for different speeds, and all it takes is a little GM flavoring with a small, random "exit time" modifier.

 

Here's two question:

 

If two ships of identical speed left at the same time for the same destination, what is the greatest possible (or desired in your game) time difference for when they arrive? Is it a matter of seconds, hours, or days?

 

And will their clocks still be in sync, or did the "later" ship experience the passage of more time than the "earlier" ship?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

That would seem to give the possibility of two ships of identical speed' date=' one following the trail of the other ship, yet arriving *before* the ship it was following! [/quote']

 

Actually, I think in HALO 2 this is close to what happens, except in this case, the High Prophet of Regret created a "slice" in the dimensional fabric and then created the field around itself. In Amber Clad was attached too/followed along immediately behind in the same field and thus moved at roughly the same speed.

 

I THINK. The problem is that as has been said, the VG's have Slipspace that moves at the speed of plot, and if people wanna do that, hey, great! But they need to know what the rules are before they can break them.

 

The just use FTL. It's cheap' date=' has a specific mechanic for different speeds, and all it takes is a little GM flavoring with a small, random "exit time" modifier.[/quote']

 

Actually, I was discussing this with my friend Shaun over lunch, and I think that the correct mechanic is actually XDM & FTL. You use XDM to enter Shaw-Fujikawa space. You then use FTL to move across it. This may be the long, ugly way around, but truthfully, it seems the most accurate model.

 

If two ships of identical speed left at the same time for the same destination' date=' what is the greatest possible (or desired in your game) time difference for when they arrive? Is it a matter of seconds, hours, or days?[/quote']

 

I would think at most it's a matter of hours, but the exit factor should be amplified by the distance. You and I leave at the same time about a Halcyon Class Cruiser. Each of us enters Slipspace. Each of us travels 14 LY to the target star (say, Reach). That's about a two week journey (a "short hop."). We could arrive up to six or eight hours apart, or nearly the same time. The text is unclear as to what the differential is.

 

I would think, as we add distance, we add variable time. So when all is said and done, if we make a 6 month jump, we could arrive a few days apart, despite having the same engines and moving at the same speed. However...

 

And will their clocks still be in sync' date=' or did the "later" ship experience the passage of more time than the "earlier" ship?[/quote']

 

Yes. The clocks will be in sync because Shaw-Fujikawa space is made of standard certified 100% US Rubber Science, and moving through it at FTL speeds does not create a relativistic breakdown. In other words, time passes normally for all concerned, despite that you're moving Faster Than Light, because of the rules of the dimension you're moving through. IOW, time would only warp around us because of the rules of our own dimension. Because Slipspace is a separate dimension, different rules apply.

 

So NOW I'm thinking that everyone (literally, everyone) is right and it's an XDM coupled with an FTL, Only Usable in Slipspace.

 

Chew on that for a while.

[DiTenebras]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I'd have to agree with Dust Raven here. With variable travel time not wholly dependant on distance or speed, EDM seems like the closest mechanic if you want to avoid straight FTL. While you could go with a mega-scaled Teleport with the Extra Time limitation (special effect of extra time occuring between jump and re-entry, not before power is used), that's just making the whole thing more complicated. The one problem that EDM has is that it doesn't take into account relative speeds of different ships, except by "hand-wavery."

 

The question this brings up is: Does it really matter?

 

Are your players going to be pushing across the galaxy to deliver a message to the armada before it falls into an ambush? Do they need to outrun enemy ships headed towards earth? If so, is it important enough to your plot or players to have accurate speeds?

 

If the slipstream for your story involves going from Point A to Point B and skipping ahead two weeks, it's not worth it for you to go through the effort of making realistic...ish stats for the drive. Extra miscellaneous stats and rolls just take extra time, and most players would rather be getting to the action at the other end of the jump ("Will we find our fleet victorious or will we awaken to the sight of a thousand shattered hulls?"). Take the EDM and make small speed differentials part of the power's special effects.

 

If the journey itself is important, you should probably go with a form of FTL or Teleportation that reflects ship speed. If you've dropped an alien/enemy/destructive toddler into the ship who's jettisoned the oxygen storage tanks, then it becomes much more important to know how long it'll be until the players can get to normal space.

 

Focus your resources on the adventure. Wherever it happens to be.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Actually' date=' I was discussing this with my friend Shaun over lunch, and I think that the correct mechanic is actually XDM & FTL. You use XDM to enter Shaw-Fujikawa space. You then use FTL to move across it. This may be the long, ugly way around, but truthfully, it seems the most accurate model.[/quote']

 

I would suggest EDM + Flight actually. S-F space may fluctuate, ripple or have whatever SFX is neccessary for making certain corrosponding distances seem relative to the ship moving across them but not in real-space, but essentially you can model the fact a ship can reach S-F space using EDM and how fast a ship can move in S-F space with Flight. Just decide how much space a hex of S-F space equals in real space, then create a chart to fluctuate it.

 

For example, on average you may assume one hex of S-F space is 0.1 LY across. So you can use 10" of Flight to move 1 LY/Phase, on average. A faster ship class may have 12", 15" or 20" or whatever proportional increase would be appropriate. Simply adjust distance and times as necessary (maybe one Phase in S-F space equals 1 day in real-space, I have no idea what kind of temporal distortion is involved though).

 

Then you create the fluctuation chart:

 

Roll 3d6:

3 -20%

4-5 -15%

6-7 -10%

8-9 -5%

10-11 No Change

12-13 +5%

14-15 +10%

16-17 +15%

18 +20%

 

Or something like that, just roll each time a trip is made to determine how long it actually takes. Ships that are inherently faster will still be inherently faster, but if the speeds are close, the slower ship might actually arrive first due to a fluke in how S-F space distorts distances.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I'd have to agree with Dust Raven here. With variable travel time not wholly dependant on distance or speed' date=' EDM seems like the closest mechanic if you want to avoid straight FTL. While you could go with a mega-scaled Teleport with the Extra Time limitation (special effect of extra time occuring between jump and re-entry, not before power is used), that's just making the whole thing more complicated. The one problem that EDM has is that it doesn't take into account relative speeds of different ships, except by "hand-wavery."[/quote']

 

Ah, obviously we haven't met. I am the Lord Captain Thia Halmades, and if I want something done a specific way, gosh darn it I'm going to find a way to do it. Here's the thing in HERO.

 

There are a BUNCH of ways to go over distance (XDM, FTL, Flight Megascaled, etc. etc.) There are also a number of things I want to do in addition to the usual "go through space." There's a specific feel I'm trying to generate, and I will always use the rules to support the feel that I want.

 

I think that the difference here isn't whether or not I can build a drive that pushes the ship through space. I can do that. I'm still trying to find out what the most efficient engine design is to do what I want; move a ship into Slipspace (XDM) and then move across light years.

 

The question this brings up is: Does it really matter?

 

Yes, very much so. Look & Feel is what makes a game feel different from all other games. HERO: Combat Evolved isn't supposed to feel like Dark Champions or Star HERO. It's supposed to feel like HALO, so it is absolutely critical that the look & feel match the source material.

 

Are your players going to be pushing across the galaxy to deliver a message to the armada before it falls into an ambush? Do they need to outrun enemy ships headed towards earth? If so' date=' is it important enough to your plot or players to have accurate speeds?[/quote']

 

First, they certainly could be. Second, according to HALO 3, the answer is a huge resounding YES. In fact, a large part of the Covenant War has gone against the UNSC (humans) because of their lack of control over Slipspace. Third, that's the absolute point of the discussion. I don't care, once it's been built, what you, the GM, do with Slipspace. I only care that the rules are right, make sense, and that people have a rule to break should they so choose.

 

If the slipstream for your story involves going from Point A to Point B and skipping ahead two weeks' date=' it's not worth it for you to go through the effort of making realistic...ish stats for the drive.[/quote']

 

100% disagree, which is why I'm still on this. Not just because my original request was never properly answered, much more because everyone seems to be arguing for taking the "easy way out" and I'm saying that sometimes design is work.

 

Extra miscellaneous stats and rolls just take extra time' date=' and most players would rather be getting to the action at the other end of the jump ("Will we find our fleet victorious or will we awaken to the sight of a thousand shattered hulls?"). Take the EDM and make small speed differentials part of the power's special effects.[/quote']

 

Absolutely; however, who's saying the GM can't check the time & distance, offer the players the option of fast forward, and still keep things consistent? The game already has a mechanic for making it fly by -- many ships have on board cryo chambers.

 

If the journey itself is important, you should probably go with a form of FTL or Teleportation that reflects ship speed. If you've dropped an alien/enemy/destructive toddler into the ship who's jettisoned the oxygen storage tanks, then it becomes much more important to know how long it'll be until the players can get to normal space.

 

Focus your resources on the adventure. Wherever it happens to be.

 

Right, so if the journey is important, then the players should be given the option of being told or being "awakened" if they're pulled out of Slipspace.

 

None of these game caveats obviates the need to design the drive properly so that the GM can then twist the mecahnics as he sees fit. Do you wonder how fast a tank goes? Does it matter if a tank can outrun a jeep? How long will it take the tank to cross a city at top speed?

 

The questions DO matter, the design DOES matter. There are no easy outs.

[SuperGuy]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Hmm. I need a term to describe speed/distance over Slipspace other than "Warp." The number at the end should "roughly equate" in SFX terms (literally in game terms' date=' for now) to the weeks/ly distance equation.[/quote']

 

New measurements can be named after the person who discovered/created the measurement. Perhaps named after the person who created the first subspace drive? Kriegs?

[DiTenebras]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

Yipes! *hides under keyboard* I didn't mean to imply that the effort wasn't worthwhile. I just wanted to make sure that the (obviously rather frustrating) process of figuring exact slipstream stats was important to your game (I've seen a friend get a mental block statting "flavor tech" and get so frustrated that he dropped the entire campaign). You're right, we haven't met. I'm new here and I like to feel out some problems before diving in. Thus, the probe to see whether the extra detail was needed. I apologize if that came across wrong.

 

Now that we've established that you do need accurate stats, I'd like to take a stab at the technology. The way I see it, you'll need four components to fully describe a slipstream drive: How to get there, how to move while there, how to explain the variance, and how to power the drive.

 

First Component: Of course, EDM, as others have stated. To create the "slipstream envelope" or portal into the slipstream.

 

EDM, to corresponding location on a single plane (the slipstream) and back again - 22 active points. This is also where we'd add the side effect of the huge groundshaking explosion (see below). The side effect goes here because the explosion would only occur when entering or exiting slipstream within an atmosphere, so has nothing to do with the FTL component (see below). I'd hesitate to provide an actual limitation value for the side effect. It's huge, but so are the mass combat potentials.

 

Second Component: The faster-than-light travel within the slipstream.

 

This part of the drive system seems the most problematic. FTL is the way to go if you want to be strict about the speed. The only problem is when it comes to faster/slower slipstream drives, since two active points more or less represents a complete doubling (or halving) of speed. If you want that much difference between ship types, great! (maybe a massive generator can impel a battleship through the slipstream many times faster than a patrol ship's meager power output).

 

If you want the ships to be closer in overall speeds, I'd recommend using the guidelines for creating a new power: Build what you want, with all the perks or flaws, then use it as a base cost for a new power. Let's take a look at FTL. 10 points for the speed of light, then 2 for every doubler. Great, but if you're simulating HALO, you won't want someone to be able to cross a light year in an hour by pumping a few extra points into the drive. Let's take a benchmark speed of 32 x the speed of light. This sets one light year at roughly 11.4 days (.877 light years/day - pulled this number since the possibility of a two week per light year time frame was mentioned, and it's not too far off) for 20 active points before any advantages. Let's give it the limiter "only while in the slipstream" -0 limitation: despite the inaccurate navigation you do have the advantage of not having to worry about flying into stray asteroids when nearing a planetary system (until you some out of the slipstream). Still 20 Active points. So we've got a 20 point base cost for a speed (our benchmark) of 1 light year in 11 and a half days. If we break this down into increments, we can create a "slipstream flight" power for the campaign, and translate it into speed in "hexes" for visualizations' sake. Let's put the benchmark speed at 10" - 2 active points per inch. This allows simulation of slower drives as well as faster ones without getting into full doublings of speed. You can have a slower 7" slipstream drive that covers a light year in 16 days or a faster 23" drive that covers the same distance in five days.

 

The third component is the varience of speed in ships with equivalent drives. If you're willing to accept the "slipstream travel" suggestion above, a simple solution would be to use a required aid power: Any slipstream drive must have an integrated Aid (succor) Slipstream Travel 1D6, 0 end (ends/resets when vessel leaves slipstream), persistent, No conscious control (ship crew will know it is active (activates when entering slipstream), but cannot choose to surpress the aid to gain a more "predictable" transit time. Effectively, this will add 0"-3" to the slipstream travel power. (At most, an extra 0.109% of a light year per hour of travel). The aid is an added power to "Slipstream Travel" and is rolled as soon as the vessel enters slipstream. As part of the power's special effect, the amout of speed gain is unquantifiable using the available technology.

 

Fourth Component: The power source - My recommendation for the power source is a dedicated, but very small, Endurance Reserve. Why small? Well, as outlined above, the Slipstream Travel and Aid (Succor) cost no endurance, so the only END cost involved is from the EDM. This might indicate a momentum based drive, or that it takes a minimal amount of energy to propel a body in slipspace (lacking laws of physical mass, inertia, and such). The EDM itself could be bought with increased endurance to make a jump cost more than just a few END each time. As to recharging, give the END Reserve's Recovery the limitations Extra Time (recovers each hour or day, whichever's more appropriate - I have no idea how long a ship in HALO drifts between jumps), and Only Recovers when not in Slipspace (-1).

 

...The explosion described seems like a nuculear reaction (surrounding atoms getting ripped apart or fused together on the edge of a dimensional portal) If you want to stat the explosion, I'd make it an energy-based RKA, Explosion, Megascale (to the appropriate size, probably kilometers), NND Does Body (Defense is hardened Energy Defense Force Field/Shield - while a minor fusion reaction may not theoretically have much concussive force, not many physical barriers would be solid afterwards). The dice of the RKA depends on what you think is reasonable for point cost or possibility of survivors. Whether this counts as a "side effect" for the EDM or a weapon inherently linked to the Slipstream technology is a separate can of worms.

 

As to the inaccuracy of Slipstream navigation, that may be best described as a feature of the Slipstream "terrain" - sort of like a permanent "cloudy night" that provides penalties to navigation rolls.

 

One last note: Using FTL or an equivalent movement power as above doesn't really represent a limit on "distance of Slipstream jumps" - it's more of a continuous fly till you get there form. If ships need to make multiple jumps, is it due to the drive capabilities? If so, you might drop the FTL entirely and go with a mega-scaled Teleport with the extra time limitations. You could still use an Aid power to introduce a little variance to the time/distance traveled. If it's not based on the capabilities of the drive, do the ships have to drop out of the Slipstream to re-orient themselves? Perhaps the farther travelled within the Slipstream, the larger the Navigation penalties to determine what the proper point is to leave the Slipstream. A prudent captain might make several jumps to ensure the most accurate entry point, while a more foolish or desperate commander might use a single jump and risk dropping back into "real" space a few light years away from his intended destination. Hope this is useful.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Subspace Engine Design Help [HERO: Combat Evolved]

 

I just thought of another way to handle the variance in times between various trips through Slipstream. I would like to attempt to understand a few things first.

 

First, is a pilot's skill a factor in this, or just the technology being used? In other words, the skill improve travel time, or is it just for finding the destination? Or is the time variance is completely random characteristic of slipstream?

 

Second, what is the contributing factor to some ships being "faster" than others? Is it pilot skill or the technology of the engines, or perhaps a combination of the two?

 

In any case, here's a possibility of pilot skill is a major factor: Use EDM to enter slipstream/S-F space. Navigation (S-F Space) is required to go anywhere at all with any amount of control or accuracy. Arriving at the correct destination requires a roll. The speed at which you travel is also determined by a separate roll. How fast you arrive is determined by how much you succeed or fail this roll. Decide on a base time per LY and modify how fast the ship actually moves based on a scale like below:

 

Succeed Exactly = 4 LY/Day

Succeed by 1 = 4.5 LY/Day

Succeed by 2 = 5 LY/Day

Succeed by 3 = 5.5 LY/Day and so on...

 

Fail by 1 = 3.5 LY/Day

Fail by 2 = 3 LY/Day

Fail by 3 = 2.5 LY/Day and so on, min 1 LY/Day

 

This way you can simulate some ships being faster than others by having build in Navigation Bonuses or a good nav comp to use as a Complimentary Skill, and certain races that are just better at navigating S-F space by having bonuses to that Skill.