Poisons

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

OK, after reading this, I think I see what you are trying to do, but I have two questions.

 

Can the character choose to use less than 6 charges with a single attack?

 

If the character can use less than 6 charges, can he make another attack with the remaining charges before he has to spend the full phase changing clips?

Yes to both. He can't put more than 6 charges into a single attack, but he can use less.

 

I think one of the other assumptions that HSA1 was making is that each Charge represented one "dose" of the poison and that each additional charge represented another "dose." Edit: In other words I think they were assuming that the character in most builds would be able to choose how much "poison" to use in any given attack.

I pretty much transcribed the original post from HSA1 - I'm not using HSA1 in any fashion that it wasn't intended.

 

HSA1 (and 2) were optional rules, of course. Some of them were incorporated into 5th edition (the new Time Chart, for example); some of them were not - but I think that the choice was not made based on "this was a good idea, this wasn't" but rather "this is universally better, this is a bit complicated and may not be needed for many campaigns". The Spirit rules, for example, were omitted probably for the latter reason.

 

One reason I think the HSA1 poison rules were omitted was because they flat out contradicted the FH rules for the same thing; it is the FH rules (NND Does Body attacks) that made it to 5th edition. The latter only work for lethal poisons, however (and IMHO not as well as the HSA1 rules even then, but that's debatable).

 

In summary: using Uncontrolled END seems a viable alternative; continuing charges is less so. The latter point seems to be misunderstood, so let me create a power that illustrates it better.

 

Take a paralysing venom that will disable you over the course of several minutes rather than several seconds:

 

2d6 Drain SPD and DEX (+1/2), returns 5pts/5 minutes (+1/2), Continuous (+1)

 

That's the base power without limitations (60 active points). Now, the HSA1 method:

 

4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), Gradual Effect (per Minute: -1/2), not vs snake venom immunity (-1/4) for a total of 30 real points. The victim will suffer a total of 6 attacks, but they'll get one recovery, so on average (assuming no Power Defense) they'll lose 37 character points of DEX and SPD over the course of a little over 5 minutes (enough to paralyse virtually any normal human).

 

The Continuing Charges method needs 4 charges that last 6 minutes (-0), Gradual Effect (attacks only once per Minute: -1/2), not vs snake venom immunity (-1/4). Here's the issue: the longer the Gradual Effect (ie the longer the poison takes to paralyse you, and hence the higher the limitation) the lower the limitation has to be for Continuing Charges - or in other words, the weaker you make the poison, the more you have to pay for it.

 

Now, granted you can fiddle with things here. If you assume a SPD 6 character and reason that over a full Turn he'd normally deliver 6 attacks, then you might reason that you just buy the charges to last 1 Turn and fudge some sort of limitation to slow down the rate (but not the number) of attacks - but that sort of hack isn't any more elegant than clips of charges, IMHO.

[caris]

Re: Poisons

 

2d6 Drain SPD and DEX (+1/2), returns 5pts/5 minutes (+1/2), Continuous (+1)

 

That's the base power without limitations (60 active points). Now, the HSA1 method:

 

4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), Gradual Effect (per Minute: -1/2), not vs snake venom immunity (-1/4) for a total of 30 real points. The victim will suffer a total of 6 attacks, but they'll get one recovery, so on average (assuming no Power Defense) they'll lose 37 character points of DEX and SPD over the course of a little over 5 minutes (enough to paralyse virtually any normal human).

 

The Continuing Charges method needs 4 charges that last 6 minutes (-0), Gradual Effect (attacks only once per Minute: -1/2), not vs snake venom immunity (-1/4). Here's the issue: the longer the Gradual Effect (ie the longer the poison takes to paralyse you, and hence the higher the limitation) the lower the limitation has to be for Continuing Charges - or in other words, the weaker you make the poison, the more you have to pay for it.

 

Now, granted you can fiddle with things here. If you assume a SPD 6 character and reason that over a full Turn he'd normally deliver 6 attacks, then you might reason that you just buy the charges to last 1 Turn and fudge some sort of limitation to slow down the rate (but not the number) of attacks - but that sort of hack isn't any more elegant than clips of charges, IMHO.

 

You did not mention Gradual Effect in your original post, so I did not factor it in to my considering of your build. I was directing my coments to the build where your character was doing 2D6 for each of his phases.

 

Just to check assumptions, here, are you using 5th Ed at all? The reason, I ask is that your use of Gradual Effect here does not make sense at all with the Gradual Effect that is in 5th ED. In 5th Ed you are not slowing down the rate at which the damage is applied as if it is a continous attack. You are spreading out a single application of the damage out over a longer period of time.

 

To get the effect that you are describing above with 5th Ed Gradual Effect would require you to buy:

 

12d6 Drain SPD and DEX (+1/2), returns 5pts/5 minutes (+1/2) Active Cost (240) Gradual Effect 2D6/Min (6 minutes for full effect) (-3/4) 4 Charges (-1). With this the character will be "attacked" six times at 2D6, with the added benefits of not having to define a turn off condition and Power Defense will only be applied until the total of all the "attacks" equal it. For example if the target had a Power Defense of 5 and the first two rolls were 4 and 2, the target would be Drained by 1 point not 0. Yeah, I'm not sure those benefits are worth the nasty increase in active points, but that is the way the book presents doing this. It would seem to me that the reasoning is that each Gradual Effect is still a single attack.

 

I'm not sure that 5th Ed has an "official" mechanic for taking a continuous attack power and lowering its rate of incident the way you are describing. It would pretty much take some sort of custom limitation and/or a house/optional rule to do it.

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

I'm using the HSA1 version of Gradual Effect that is completely different from the FH version (which is what made it into 5th edition).

 

I would imagine that there is a copyright on the exact text, but here's a summary of how it works:

• It is used for Continuous attacks. Most Continuous attacks attack once per phase on the attacker's phases.
  
• Gradual Effect can slow the rate of attack by 1 step per -1/4 limitation (thus, once per Turn is -1/4, once per minute is -1/2, and so on).

It's a lot more elegant than the FH/5th edition monstrosity that requires you to buy a massive AP power to reflect a power that is not nearly as deadly as the AP would imply, but whether or not you agree with that statement, the above version is what I'm referring to by "Gradual Effect". My apologies if that wasn't clear; I thought I had stated this in my original post.

[caris]

Re: Poisons

 

I'm using the HSA1 version of Gradual Effect that is completely different from the FH version (which is what made it into 5th edition).

 

I would imagine that there is a copyright on the exact text, but here's a summary of how it works:

• It is used for Continuous attacks. Most Continuous attacks attack once per phase on the attacker's phases.
  
• Gradual Effect can slow the rate of attack by 1 step per -1/4 limitation (thus, once per Turn is -1/4, once per minute is -1/2, and so on).

It's a lot more elegant than the FH/5th edition monstrosity that requires you to buy a massive AP power to reflect a power that is not nearly as deadly as the AP would imply, but whether or not you agree with that statement, the above version is what I'm referring to by "Gradual Effect". My apologies if that wasn't clear; I thought I had stated this in my original post.

 

Your statement about Gradual Effect wasn't clear to me in your original post, because I read it as referring to the time breaks on the table being different, not that the whole mechanics is different. It had been a while since I last read HSA1.

 

Well, to answer your last question from the original post the more "correct" way in 5th addition would be to not use the term "Gradual Effect" for the modifier that changes the incidence at which damage occurs, because that will cause confusion with the "official" modifier called that.

 

Beyond, that I'm not sure there is a more "correct" build, officially. I think personally, that I would prefer to use some sort of variation on AutoFire rather than Continuous for what you are trying to accomplish. Either way, I'd need some sort of explicit modifier that the damage of the multiple Charges were done consecutively, not concurrently. Even if it was +/-0 modifier, just to remind me.

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Well' date=' to answer your last question from the original post the more "correct" way in 5th addition would be to not use the term "Gradual Effect" for the modifier that changes the incidence at which damage occurs, because that will cause confusion with the "official" modifier called that. [/quote']

 

OK, that's certainly fair. Let's call it "Slowed Attack Rate"?

 

It's surprising to me that the version of Gradual Effect that made it to 5th edition was the FH one. IMHO, Drain is a much cleaner mechanic for poison or disease than an NND Does Body is. But I'm just one man.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Poisons

 

I was wondering whether a debilitating attack might be simulated with TK vs CON...

 

Its a crazy notion but I was thinking that TK can be used to grab someone, this power would measure the STR of the poison versus the CON of the victim to determine whether the grab succeeds.

 

You are back with the whole continuous uncontrolled continuing charges etc debate for effect. Personally I would allow a continuous uncontrolled attack that could be treated mundanely and/or time limited in effect.

 

I've never thought of trying this before...

 

 

Doc

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

I was wondering whether a debilitating attack might be simulated with TK vs CON...

Or an Entangle, or whatever. Yes, that's an approach.

 

The problem is that grabbing someone doesn't necessarily prevent them from moving (reasoning: if you Grab someone with your normal STR, and they have Flight that isn't restrainable, then they can fly and take you with them - I'm not sure that TK prevents that). Even if it does, it doesn't slow them down at all (they will still be "struggling to break the grip of the poison" every one of their phases). And finally it's all or nothing (either you stop them completely, or else they aren't stopped at all). That's why I prefer the Drain - it avoids all of these issues.

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

The problem is that grabbing someone doesn't necessarily prevent them from moving (reasoning: if you Grab someone with your normal STR' date=' and they have Flight that isn't restrainable, then they can fly and take you with them - I'm not sure that TK prevents that).[/quote']

Due to the "Reactionless" nature of Telekinesis, a person grabbed by Telekinesis is unable to affect an attacking character as far as movement is concerned. They can break out of the grab, but they can't drag them along using movement.

 

Just a clarification.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Due to the "Reactionless" nature of Telekinesis' date=' a person grabbed by Telekinesis unable to affect attacking character as far a movement is concerned. They can break out of the grab, but they can't drag them along using movement.[/quote']

But can the TK actually stop them from moving, whether or not it drags along the telekinetic? That's unclear to me.

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

But can the TK actually stop them from moving' date=' whether or not it drags along the telekinetic? That's unclear to me.[/quote']

If the Grab is successful, they are stopped dead in their tracks. Until they break free, they can't use STR or Movement to Pull/Push the character.

 

I always think of Telekinesis working like the Tractor Beams in Star Trek.

 

They can grab and hold things and even tow them, but the target can only break free of the Tractor beam not pull the source of the tractor beam.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Poisons

 

If I did use TK versus CON to 'grab' the victim, then I would be inclined to rule that the effect of the grab would be to debilitate the victim - they would be woozy and unstable rather than the classic grab of a TK attack.

 

Give the poison victim a bit more leeway to act without providing them full access to their physical abilities.

 

Doc

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

If I did use TK versus CON to 'grab' the victim' date=' then I would be inclined to rule that the effect of the grab would be to debilitate the victim - they would be woozy and unstable rather than the classic grab of a TK attack.[/quote']

Yes, but what does that actually mean in mechanical terms?

 

It looks like the victim would (for example) be able to blast away with their Energy Blast every phase even while "paralysed", or even Haymaker anyone foolish enough to come close enough. Effectively you have stopped them moving (perhaps), but not slowed them down in any other way.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Poisons

 

Yes, but what does that actually mean in mechanical terms?

 

It looks like the victim would (for example) be able to blast away with their Energy Blast every phase even while "paralysed", or even Haymaker anyone foolish enough to come close enough. Effectively you have stopped them moving (perhaps), but not slowed them down in any other way.

 

It would depend on the description of the poison.

 

For some, the debilitation would allow them to shoot their energy blast but be incapable of effectively aiming it (raising their arm or whatever to the required location or focussing their gaze to get full power or something). For others they would be paralysed and be able to blast away wherever their arm happened to be pointing...

 

Many poisons work in a variety of ways. If you want them knocked out then simply use a dmage attack and remove their STUN. These options are for those attacks that do not effectively remove consicousness but remove the ability of their victim to fully function.

 

 

Doc

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

Yes' date=' but what does that actually mean in mechanical terms?[/quote']

Yes.

 

It looks like the victim would (for example) be able to blast away with their Energy Blast every phase even while "paralysed"' date=' or even Haymaker anyone foolish enough to come close enough. Effectively you have stopped them moving (perhaps), but not slowed them down in any other way.[/quote']

The definition of a "Grab" prevents the grabbed character from using powers to break free other than strength. It also suggests that there are situations where the charcter can still use attacks although they may not be able to aim them.

 

So a Haymaker would probably be out of the question, while an Energy Blast power might be unaffected as far as activating it, but hindered as far as OCV is concerned.

 

These are the mechanical results of being Grabbed. When it is a Telekinesis Grab (Reactionless), the target is stopped in their tracks since the momentum may add to STR for breaking the Grab, it has no effect on the attacker so target is either stopped dead in their in tracks or break free.

 

Again, this unique oddity is specific to TK alone.

 

Addendum: Ditto what Doc said above.

 

- Christopher Mullins