Doc Democracy

An excellent point. I do think however that we are looking for the killing attack mechanic to carry a big burden. I do not think that these changes on their own give us what we want, the question we need to be thinking is whether this is a decent tool for the toolbox. I think that the proposed method for killing attacks is probably very cinematic. I like it for that reason. If you are playing a grittier game then there needs to be more in there, and I think that this is a better platform to build even the grittier elements. In the Johnny Cash scenario, I would expect that the GM has toned up the gritty aspect of this world. Mooks have the Phys Lim that they take 2x BODY from killing attacks and the GM uses BODY multipliers on hit locations, so a gut shot is 3x BODY, on top of the 2x for being a mook a saturday night special doing 3D6K (equivalent of the old 1D6K) will average 3 BODY (x6) which is 18 and more than enough to take any mook out. Even hitting them on the leg (a 1x multiplier) will do, a minimum of 6 BODY, disabled and crying in pain. The hit locations would add an element of swing to your 1920's gangster games (see what I did there) and the physical limitation allows deadliness to be ramped up even further, without even thinking about defences etc. It is this level of customisation that should be the selling point of the game system. Having the core mechanic deliver more predictable damage makes it possible to have the same weapons have wildly different effects on mooks, soldiers and bosses despite them all wearing the same cut of suit... Doc

I thought our problem in HERO was that we were aging middle-aged and (mostly) men. Not the target demographic. As an interested third party, I think none of the earlier posts warranted downvoting, though they may have warranted noticing in the discussion. I know I sometimes feel hurt by comments on the forums but I think downvoting only exacerbates disagreements and encourages bad behaviour. I know I ALWAYS think I am in the right, I expect many opinion givers on the internet feel likewise. I am asking one of you (if not both) and everyone else to go back and remove all the downvotes. Then see if we can discuss like true old gamers who like the same game.... Doc

Gentlemen. There is a LOT of downvoting going on in this thread, some of it probably provoked by earlier downvotes. I cannot remember seeing so many especially not in one thread. Obviously there are no forum rules about use of downvotes but they have mostly been used, in my experience to denote bad behaviour than disagreement. I have not seen much intemperate language or behaviour so the downvoting, to me, seems OTT. Could I ask you to go back and think again whether you do actually want to be downvoting posts rather than simply expressing disagreement. Doc

I have played a LOT in Glorantha, so I am pretty comfortable with the Gods being a daily part of life with a heavy influence on layer actions. I hanker to develop a game that would feature actual god's stomping about the world, marking their territory and getting involved with PCs. I think the trick would be to have a system, open but not necessarily transparent, to the players about how close their actions take them to one or more God's getting involved. It should be possible to exist without involving yourself in the business of the gods but adventurers should probably be skirting that possibility on a constant basis. Obviously one God getting involved would increase the chances of other Gods. Involvement might mean anything from visions at one end to being pulled into the God's spiritual domain for a quick 1to1. I think it could be a lot of fun. Doc

There is a saying where I grew up, " If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle". You say "if" it renders Entangles and Barriers generally useless. Does it? Does it do so any more than armour piercing? Would it not if a hardened Entangle nullified the killing advantage in the same way as it nullifies armour piercing? Obviously any change has ripple effects. You argued hard that this would create a major change and then argued against mitigating the change because if it does not change things, why bother. And yes, there are meta rules that could boil the system down to relatively few moving parts but, by that time, it is likely to have become MUCH more abstract and almost narrative. All that is being suggested is removing a second damage system with different rolls and rules. This streamlines things and means people have one less "thing" to learn. Doc

As I note above, I don't think that is as much a problem as a feature. I WOULD make killing an advantage like other things and it would deliver advantageous results under the right circumstances. Doc

Is that a terrible thing? It would be for this reason I think it warrants an advantage but you are now in a position where one kind of attack reliably delivers more BODY per DC. If the only drawback is that it might be another blade for the multipower Swiss army knife then I don't see that as anything different from the current position where a player puts in NND, AP, affect desolid, etc attacks. It simply provides another option. Doc

Hmm. Would the idea behind this be better if, as well as applying the damage against resistant defences, you also bump BODY damage by the number of dice and reduce STUN by the same, so for 6D6 killing attack, you count BODY normally then add 6, count STUN normally and subtract 6. This ensures slightly weaker defences versus increased BODY damage which is the whole purpose of a killing attack. Doc

No way to combine them? Three heroes offer more than one does...

Just reading it again. Guppy has just 84 seconds to live...how much more significant does it have to be! 🙂 If the dying character is not heroic, that is maybe three frantic attempts to save their life...no agent or minor NPC is going to do anything else.

One key difference of hitting 0 STUN is that after your recovery and your STUN is back to 10 or 11, your END will also be 10 or 11, unlike stunned which does not affect your END. Doc

https://www.outsideonline.com/1784106/how-long-can-humans-hold-their-breath I reckon 2 minutes in a cinematic game looks reasonable, if not slightly stingy. Doc

I think the book should mention/ promote the cards, give some pointers on their use. Begin building a gateway for new groups to use the rules.

To be fair, something Champions Complete should have included, the big Hero System tomes would have had to include for EVERY genre and would then have needed a third volume! 🙂

I agree with the Hall of Heroes idea. First thing a bunch of basic archetypal characters. $3 or $5, easy to layout cash. For each archetype a separate document. The basic brick (again) but then tricked up to be a more complex generic brick with a few examples of comic book styles, so Hulk, Thor, Colossus and Superman. It gives something for a beginning GM to pick up and hand out to friends. If friend playing brick says "I wanted something a bit more like..." Then he can pick up the brick book and if really interested later on The Ultimate Brick book. Would be a valuable resources for new players and GMs.