Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

[Hierax]

One of the neat semi-hidden options mentioned only briefly in the main rulebook is a Simplified version of the Ablative Limitation for Defences (H5er.116).

 

Given that the DEF is reduced by -5 Active Points per Attack which BODY exceeds the DEF is a -1 Limitation, what do you think the expanded values for the following 3 options would be:

• BODY -10 AP (-2?) *
  [double the reduction of above]

• BODY or STUN -5 AP (-2?)
  [regularly BODY + STUN is twice the cost of BODY only]

• BODY or STUN -10 AP (-4?)
  [double the reduction of above]

I like it because it reduces dice rolling and it'll allow a force wall -like collapsing of defences, albeit gradual rather than all or nothing, that will nicely fit the Sword & Sorcery type of Barbarian battering down the sorcerer's spell armor/shield/forcefield or whathave you.

 

Steve wasn't willing to answer this one and I'm interested in what everyone else feels would be a fair value for this.

 

FWIW, particularly the -10 AP per time the DEF is breached with BODY damage because for my spells (that are 10AP/level after Advanages) it'll effectively and neatly reduce them by 1 DEF per hit.

 

Thanks in advance!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

 

• BODY -10 AP (-2?) *
  [double the reduction of above]

• BODY or STUN -5 AP (-2?)
  [regularly BODY + STUN is twice the cost of BODY only]

• BODY or STUN -10 AP (-4?)
  [double the reduction of above]

The first one seems about right. The other two, I'm less confident about, but I can't tell if they're too high or too low.

 

Remember that -2 is the value of One Charge. These seem slightly better than only one charge. Then again, One Charge also comes with 0 END, so maybe they should be compared to -2.5 = One Charge and Still Costs END.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

 

One of the neat semi-hidden options mentioned only briefly in the main rulebook is a Simplified version of the Ablative Limitation for Defences (H5er.116).

 

Given that the DEF is reduced by -5 Active Points per Attack which BODY exceeds the DEF is a -1 Limitation, what do you think the expanded values for the following 3 options would be:

• BODY -10 AP (-2?) *
  [double the reduction of above]

• BODY or STUN -5 AP (-2?)
  [regularly BODY + STUN is twice the cost of BODY only]

• BODY or STUN -10 AP (-4?)
  [double the reduction of above]

I like it because it reduces dice rolling and it'll allow a force wall -like collapsing of defences, albeit gradual rather than all or nothing, that will nicely fit the Sword & Sorcery type of Barbarian battering down the sorcerer's spell armor/shield/forcefield or whathave you.

 

Steve wasn't willing to answer this one and I'm interested in what everyone else feels would be a fair value for this.

 

FWIW, particularly the -10 AP per time the DEF is breached with BODY damage because for my spells (that are 10AP/level after Advanages) it'll effectively and neatly reduce them by 1 DEF per hit.

 

Thanks in advance!

You've misread the wording of the 'simplified' Ablative limitation. the proper wording is:

 

At the GM’s option, Ablative can function in a different, but somewhat simpler, fashion: for a -1 Limitation, every shot against which an Ablative Defense Power provides protection and which could, if a good enough roll were achieved, do BODY damage to the target reduces the Defense Power by 5 Active Points, regardless of whether the target itself takes damage.

 

This means that any attack that could do BODY to an ablative defense will reduce said defense by 5 APs. As an example, a (15,15) Ablative Armor power with 45 Active Points will fail after 9 hits from an 8D6 regular attack because the attack could do 16 BODY and exceed the 15 DEF of the Armor.

 

Personally, I'd prefer that Ablative defenses have a 'BODY' stat that could be reduced by actual BODY done from an attack (say 1 BODY for every 5 base points). That way, (15,15) Armor would have 9 BODY, while a (15,15) Force Field would only have 6 BODY (but of course, you can re-raise a Force Field). Also, you could improve the integrity of your defense by buying BODY (for 2pts/+1 BODY). I'd consider that a -½ limitation since the BODY of an attack needs to exceed the applicable DEF.

[Hierax]

Re: Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

 

You've misread the wording of the 'simplified' Ablative limitation. the proper wording is:

 

This means that any attack that could do BODY to an ablative defense will reduce said defense by 5 APs.

 

OK, so then how about how much would the value be for the way that I misread it?

 

My quick guess would be, since Standard Effect is 1/2 the Maximum Dice Roll Value, -1/2 per -5 AP or -1 per -10 AP. Does that sound like more reasonable values?

[Oruncrest]

Re: Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

 

OK, so then how about how much would the value be for the way that I misread it?

 

My quick guess would be, since Standard Effect is 1/2 the Maximum Dice Roll Value, -1/2 per -5 AP or -1 per -10 AP. Does that sound like more reasonable values?

 

Yes. here are my suggestions:

 

Ablative (-5 AP if the BODY of an attack exceeds DEF): -½ (Ablative at this level is about equal to the 'standard' version of ablative at -½)

 

Ablative (-5 AP if the STUN or BODY of an attack exceeds DEF): -1 (Ablative at this level is about equal to the 'standard' version of ablative at -1)

 

Ablative (-10 AP if the BODY of an attack exceeds DEF): -1 (harder to do than the 'standard' version of -1 Ablative, but more damaging if it succeeds)

 

Ablative (-10 AP if the STUN or BODY of an attack exceeds DEF): -2 (most attacks will shred defenses this limited (and don't forget all the added STUN done to the defender) rather quickly)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Ablative Limitation, Simplified but Expanded

 

I can see Ablative functioning in a variety of ways based upon some variables:

 

1. Full value or Current value?

 

2. Full or Partial Coverage?

 

3. How much of attack causes how much stepdown?

 

Number 1 controls how much damage gets though the defense as it is being shot away (Full Value = Standard Ablative mechanic, Current Value = "Simplified" Ablative mechanic).

 

Number 2 controls the mechanic of how long it lasts (Partial Coverage = Standard Ablative mechanic with the Activation Roll, Full Coverage = "Simpler" mechanic with the Active Point reduction).

 

Number 3 controls how fast #2 steps down. It can be just for Body damage, or for Stun damage as well. It can be a "1 step per attack/5 AP per attack" or "1 step per X pts of damage before defenses/5 SP per X pts of damage before defenses"

 

So:

1. Full Value

2. Partial Coverage

3. 1 per attack

 

results in the "standard" Ablative Limitation

 

And:

1. Current Value

2. Full Coverage

3. 5 AP per attack

 

results in the "simplified" Ablative Limitation

 

But what about different combinations? Granted, some combinations might not be limiting enough, and others might make the power almost worthless. I haven't thought out all ramifications. But in amongst them are (I believe) the possibility to have Classic BattleTech-style armor, and also Star Trek-style shields.