Catalyst Spell Casting

[mayapuppies]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

 

I'm tossing around an idea in my head about developing a magic system that is very similar to the Catalyst Spell Casting described in the Essence Companion for Rolemaster. In particular the Corpist and Crystalist casters.

 

The Crystalists are easy, simply utilize END Battery's for the crystals.

 

The Corpist is a bit different. Each piece of organic matter (faerie wing, human blood, goats horn, etc.) can only be used to "fuel" specific spells (i.e. Dwarf teeth fuel earth spells). In addition, I'd like the catalyst to also be the END Battery for the spell.

 

Now, normally I'd just use the Focus limitation for spells that require components to cast, but somehow I don't think that would really represent the "feel" I'm going for here.

 

Any suggestions?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Well...at its most basic level its just some arbitrary campaign boundaries around acceptable Material Components -- its just how you define the required Foci.

 

If you want to get more complicated than that, it could be a variation of "ambient" magic, which you could model as you note by making the components END reserves (though this has the side effect of requiring all spells to cost END from such a reserve to work.

 

An alternative to this would be to instead have such items act as a 1 charge HEAL to an END Reserve, requiring the casters to have an END Reserve themselves to use the items. This basically is like opting not to subsidize the END Reserve of casters.

 

Another alternative to this would be to place a Limitation on the REC of a casters END pool "Only Works By Consuming Magic From Component". If you went that route you could require casters to have separate END Reserves for each type of Magic, differentiated by the limitation on their individual RECs -- which would be a way for casters to differentiate themselves (one might have a large Earth Magic END Reserve, which indirectly allows him to cast bigger / more Earth Magic spells than someone with a small Earth Magic Reserve).

 

 

Another way to go is more like the Tass and Vim idea of Ars Magica, where a caster can cast without a component, but if they have a component the spell is stronger / better. WHFRPG 2e has a similar effect whereby the difficulties of casting a spell are easier if you have an appropriate component.

 

 

And so on...there's a lot of directions to go w/ this. In the end you have to consider whether the added flavor outweighs the extra bookkeeping involved. I generally find that most players don't want to be bothered by such things, which is why the closest I've gotten to this is the Piedragemas Magic System on my site (the Gemstone magic one) which most players are ok with because at least the Foci are reusable -- you can reuse the same Ruby for your Ruby magic over and over again.

 

I've played around w/ making such systems, and ambient magic systems, but in both cases in the end while I found it cool, players I pitched it too were not enthused by it. There is a lot of "drag" involved with the idea -- things that slow down play and force overhead. I make nods to it, like in the Order of Esow where its an option, but the definition of components and how much of a benefit they grant is left completely to the players and GM to determine on their own.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

I'll take a look at those examples you give and take a long look at the idea. At first blush, I'm liking this one:

Another alternative to this would be to place a Limitation on the REC of a casters END pool "Only Works By Consuming Magic From Component". If you went that route you could require casters to have separate END Reserves for each type of Magic' date=' differentiated by the limitation on their individual RECs -- which would be a way for casters to differentiate themselves (one might have a large Earth Magic END Reserve, which indirectly allows him to cast bigger / more Earth Magic spells than someone with a small Earth Magic Reserve).[/quote']

Exactly because of the indirect specialization it will engender.

 

Thanks KS, I knew I'd end up going to your site for this at some point.

[Hierax]

Material Spell Components to enhance Spell END and Power

 

Mayapuppies, I'm curious, what did you finally decided upon?

 

I'm re-vamping my magic stuff and am looking at something similar (btw, good to see someone else drawing on Rolemaster too!).

 

I agree that the Gems are pretty simple to do as END Reserves.

 

For the Plant and Animal (and mineral) parts, what I was playing with was using a regular Expendable Focus Limitation as a baseline for using mundane material spell components but to allow a bonus to the Skill Roll for using better/magical material spell components.

 

e.g., Fireball Focus of "a tiny ball composed of bat guano and sulphur" but say if you used at Red Dragon's tongue or Efreeti horn, etc. you'd get a bonus

 

This is similar to taking additional time casting a spell to get a skill roll bonus. This simulates the Ars Magica spontaneous casting. This way it's only as much of a hassle as the player wants to make it (thus addressing Shrike's good point).

 

Furthermore, certain things could serve as a magical energy reserve, as per the RM Essence Catalyst system. I think that for those the caster still has to provide at least 1 PP/END themselves to what the Catalyst stores.

 

This could be done with these components having the Catalyst ability; essentially being Independent Expendable Foci for an END Reserve and/or an Aid. The caster would have to pay the 1 END minimum to access the END of the Catalyst, possibly more if it gave a larger Aid as well.

 

Now these Catalysts could be innately usable "as is" with them being empowered as a campaign ground rule or (if this would make them too common and thus too unbalancing or burdensome) to restrict it a bit one could require them to be created like Magic Items where a creator pays a character point (or few) to empower them. With these Limitations they would be cheap to make. The cost might be worth it to a caster to have an extra reserve of power (END) and/or to have a power boost when needed.

 

Or, another possible approach is to have Catalyst Casters buy an extra END Reserve and/or Aid that is built with a Trigger and has an Expendable Focus. That way they have to pay the points for the extra ability and can only use it when the appropriate material components are available.

 

i.e., either have Catalysts innately automatically empowered (whether written up as Independent items or as a ground rule for Focus Limitation modification) or have points paid for empowering the Catalysts (by a Catalyst creator) or have a caster pay points for the ability to boost his ability with Catalysts.

 

Again, those are just some quick ideas that I'm running through, what did you decide upon?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Hiya Hierax,

 

Honestly this hasn't been on my plate for a bit. I got caught up in publishing the first book, then the second and...well, let me get some sleep and be able to look over your post with a clear head and I'll see what I can come up with.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Thanks!

 

btw, I'm eager to pick up your book as soon as I get some $ I'll get a copy!

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Thanks!

 

btw, I'm eager to pick up your book as soon as I get some $ I'll get a copy!

Sweet! I love to hear this and I hope you enjoy it.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Material Spell Components to enhance Spell END and Power

 

Furthermore' date=' certain things could serve as a magical energy reserve, as per the [i']RM[/i] Essence Catalyst system. I think that for those the caster still has to provide at least 1 PP/END themselves to what the Catalyst stores.

 

This could be done with these components having the Catalyst ability; essentially being Independent Expendable Foci for an END Reserve and/or an Aid. The caster would have to pay the 1 END minimum to access the END of the Catalyst, possibly more if it gave a larger Aid as well.

 

Now these Catalysts could be innately usable "as is" with them being empowered as a campaign ground rule or (if this would make them too common and thus too unbalancing or burdensome) to restrict it a bit one could require them to be created like Magic Items where a creator pays a character point (or few) to empower them. With these Limitations they would be cheap to make. The cost might be worth it to a caster to have an extra reserve of power (END) and/or to have a power boost when needed.

I really like this. This is what I would most likely have gone with in my own system, though I wouldn't have thought to use the 1 END minimum from the PC. I like that little addition.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Would you go with them all as innately empowered as is foci or would you prefer them to have to be actively empowered as Independent Magic Items that provide the END and/or Aid?

 

Yeah, I think that the 1 END is faithful to the RM original. It's also a way that if you give some foci an actual minor power of their own and have the required 1 END have to come from a Magical Mana END Reserve instead of personal END, then you can have it only used by the magically gifted/trained.

 

You could take the 1 END idea further and run with it to create a whole school of spellcasters that have an END Reserve (and perhaps a Magic Skill) but don't buy any spells with character points themselves, they just acquire (and perhaps empower) these magical foci/items and use their imbedded power(s); the number of END in their Reserve would be the number of spells that they could cast with the proper components.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Would you go with them all as innately empowered as is foci or would you prefer them to have to be actively empowered as Independent Magic Items that provide the END and/or Aid?

I think I'd go with innately, otherwise, why/how would this develop? If you ahd to charge them up yourself, then why develop it with such limited and easily broken/destroyed materials? Why not place it into something more durable with a higher capacity.

 

I think something like catalyst spell casting would develop due to the materia having an innate power.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

good point, that makes more sense.

 

But, that said, perhaps while they have an innate bonus they could also sometimes be empowered with a greater bonus as well and get the most options available.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Yeah, I can see that.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

FWIW, the other week in a D&D game our party killed a Beholder and I was thinking awesome all these eyes should make great spell components and hey why not turn some of the eyestalks into a sort of wand?

 

Sadly the DM didn't go for it, having spell components just be there, but in revamping my own FH Magic I though I should definitely have these kinds of options for component based bonuses.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Yeah, see, that right there is why I despised most MMO's and tabletop games. No flexability.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

I'm initially thinking that for those players/GMs that like it simple they can use the standard Easily Replaced Expendable Foci (-0) as a baseline that just let the spell work and offer no real bonuses and no extra hassel to run -- effectively they'd provide no END (1 END for 1 END).

 

But for those who are more appreciative of the flavour gain and less worried about a bit of detail keeping:

 

• Easy Expendable Foci (-0 more) give +0 to Skill Roll and provide 0 END (provide 1 END but cost 1 END).
   
  
• Difficult Expendable Foci (-1/4 more) give +1 to the Skill Roll and provide 2 END for 1 END, essentially +1 END.
   
  
• Very Difficult Expendable Foci (-1/2 more) give +2 to the Skill Roll and +2 END (provide 3 END for 1 END paid by caster).
   
  
• I'd add an extra interval of Limitation at the -3/4 [need a name] that would give +3 to the Skill Roll and +3 END (provide 4 END for 1 END paid by caster).
   
  
• Extremely Difficult Expendable Foci (-1 more) give +4 to the Skill Roll and +4 END (provide 5 END for 1 END paid by caster).
  

These bonuses apply only for spells that use the baseline spell Easy components.

 

Some spells would still require these higher levels of components (Difficult+) as the baseline instead of Easy, and they'd have bonuses scaled from there -- e.g., spell is written up as requiring an Expendable Foci that is Difficult to Obtain, so using it gives no bonus but using a Very Difficult gives +1 Skill and +1 END (2-1), using [need a name] type gives +2 bonuses (3-1), and using Extremely Difficult gives +3 bonuses (3-1).

 

These could be empowered some already innately/naturally some artificially to give up to a maximum of a 1d6 Aid per level of the component:

 

• Easy 0-1d6 Aid and/or 0-5 Active Points of a Power(s)
  
• Difficult 1-2d6, and/or 5-10 Active Points of a Power(s)
  
• Very Difficult 2-3d6, and/or 10-15 Active Points of a Power(s)
  
• [need a name] Difficult 3-4d6, and/or 15-20 Active Points of a Power(s)
  
• Extremely Difficult 4-5d6, and/or 20-25 Active Points of a Power(s)
  

 

It depends if one wants the baseline Easy components to be empowered or if the empowering baseline is Difficult (hence the #-# range).

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

• Very Difficult Expendable Foci (-1/2 more) give +2 to the Skill Roll and +2 END (provide 3 END for 1 END paid by caster).
   
  
• I'd add an extra interval of Limitation at the -3/4 [need a name] that would give +3 to the Skill Roll and +3 END (provide 4 END for 1 END paid by caster).
  

Spell Synergy?

Synergistic Bond?

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

I meant a name for the interval between Very Difficult and Extremely Difficult = _____ Difficult.

 

I like a full range of values to chose from, pet peeve I hate gaps in progressions.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Ah, gotchya

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Any suggestion on how to improve upon / flesh out this idea?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Aside from coming up with a rather exhaustive list of spell components I think you've got it nailed.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Great, thanks!

 

Now just have to wade into all those great RM herb tables and look at monster write-ups for appropriate power connections...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

The Essence companion has all of that and more.

[Hierax]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Yeah, and the various MERP modules lots had special herbs in them.

[Savinien]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

Wow. You guys should play in each other's games. I would play and have fun, but I would occassionally be dragged down by the book-keeping. The ideas sound great and being able to cobble critters for spell components nifty... I would likely sort of wing it as a GM and press for it as a player. I can see Kam having insane skill rolls and skill needs though...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Catalyst Spell Casting

 

It is definitely a system I fullheartedly condone...