A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

[Tungsten Shephard]

I'm seeking a way to build a Spell that has the effect of a gust of wind. This in turn would only knock someone down to the Ground. (Target Falls Down like effect, or leg sweep effect from Martial Arts)

 

I would need to be able to build the power in HERO designer of course.

 

Any suggestions?

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Does or can the "wind" continue to hold the person down?

 

I would think that a Telekinesis that can only do the Grab & Throw maneuver should do it. If it can continue to hold the person down, you would get less of a limitation (I don't have my book in front of me or I would give you more detail). I don't have Hero Designer, so I'm not sure how you'd do it with that.

[CTaylor]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

A knockback-only attack works, lots of limitations to make it dirt cheap (does no damage, can only knock down).

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

A knockback-only attack has a few problems:

 

- It can be complicated to build a naked advantage

- Naked advantages can be restricted by the GM

- It can be difficult to build if used in a fantasy game where only the knockdown rules are used (knockback generally being used for supers-level game)

- Knockback will uncontrollably send a person flying quite a few inches, not quite the description that Glory Fox gave of knocking someone down

 

By sticking to a basic power, it is more likely that the GM will approve it. TK of 10 STR would cost 15 pts. If only usable with a Grab & Throw maneuver it would be at least a -1 limitation. Affects whole object (no squeezing or punching) is -1/4. Right there is 6-7 pts, depending on how you round. If this is a spell, I'm sure you'll be able to add gestures, incantations, and the spell limitation, as well, making it even less.

[CTaylor]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

I wouldn't build it as a naked advantage, I'd build it with a power (2D6 or more) that has the limitations "only for knockdown" and "does no damage" but the TK option works too; problem is, it would be a whole lot more expensive. The KB blast option would look something like this:

 

Energy Blast 2D6 (vs pd)

Double Knockback (+3/4); Does no damage (-1 1/2), knockback only knocks down (-1/2), yadda yadda magicky disads (-x)

 

That would give you something that on average would put your target on the ground and cost about 3 points, max.

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

I'd go with the Telekinesis option myself. If the gust of wind only works to knock the opponent down instead of holding him down, make the power an Instant power like;

Gust of Wind: Telekinesis (20 STR) (30 Active Points); Only to knock target down (-1 1/2), Your magical system limitations here (-1), Instant (-1/2)

Real Cost: 7

If it can hold somebody down after it knocks them down then;

Gust of Wind: Telekinesis (20 STR) (30 Active Points); Only to knock target down and hold them in place (-1), Your magical system limitations here (-1)

Real Cost: 10

Everybody has their own interpretations on the rules, but I am hesitant to build effects based on a damaging power and then taking a Limitation to remove the damage. That's just me and I'm not saying the other way is necessarily wrong.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Does or can the "wind" continue to hold the person down?

 

No it only simulates the game effect of Knockdown. The Spell does no damage whatsoever. Look on Page 417 of 5ed R, and you can understand better of the effect I want. As it is Knockdown is tied to damage however you can argue that it is possible to knock someone down without damaging them.

 

Also look at Does Knockdown Page 122-123 in HERO System Combat Handbook.

 

Another effect I want to add to the spell is "Area of Effect one HEX". Telekinesis's Indirect is interesting way of doing this, but the cost seems to expensive for me. Especially since you could buy Martial Maneuvers to simulate the same effect.

 

 

 

LONG TERM GOAL: I am in the process of translating many of the spells, skills, enchantments, and hexes from Guild Wars a very popular MMO. Some of the monsters I am creating will need to simulate many of the special effects found in the game. Knockdown is a very popular in game effect for many of the spells, binding Rituals, etc, etc. I can simulate many of the Enchantments even energy required enchantments but not knockdown. The other option I am considering is creating a custom power simply called Knockdown. If I were to create this as a custom power I am unsure what cost to give it. 15 per knockdown phase perhaps? or is that too much?

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Due to the randomness of dice, trying to buy dice of an Energy Blast would not guarantee a knockdown. If you roll 2 BODY effect on the dice (average for a 2d6 Energy Blast), you then have to roll knockback effect, which is 2 dice (or 1d6 if the target is flying). The average knockback rolled on 2d6 is 7. 2-7 = no inches of knockback. You would have to buy at least 8d6 dice of energy blast to count on knocking someone down most of the time.

 

The ONLY thing in HERO that guarantees a knockdown effect is a martial art maneuver.

[braincraft]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Change Environment 1" -7 to DEX rolls (only to knock down, -1/4; instant, -1/2) comes out to 23 active and 13 real points, costs 2 END, and is almost guaranteed to cause knockdown for anyone without very high DEX rolls. You can continue to lower the cost with whatever appropriate spell-like Limitations, or increase the power until even very high DEX rolls need to roll a 3 to stay on their feet.

[CTaylor]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Yeah you're right you'd probably need more than 2 dice, but the "double knockback" effect helps negate some of that, and to be honest, a telekinetic knockdown doesn't guarantee the effect either. Like I said, you can build it either way, but I'd go for the knockback because you can get it cheaper.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Wind Gust: [Active cost 34 real cost 7] Telekinesis (13 STR), Area Of Effect Nonselective (One Hex; +1/4), Does Knockdown Page 122-123 HSCH (+1/4), Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4) (34 Active Points); Limited Power Power Does No STUN (-3/4), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Spell Roll (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Instant (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Only for Knockdown (-1/4)

 

The Spell still seems too expensive IMO.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

GloryFox, you are making this power WAAAAY too complicated.

 

AoE Nonselective is a waste of time. You have to hit the hex first (usually easy, but you still risk missing) and then you have to hit the target's DCV anyway. Not worth the points it costs. If you absolutely MUST hit more than one person in the hex, stick with a free sweep maneuver and take the OCV penalty, especially since you only bought 1 hex. At least with a sweep you could send the spell through a line of hexes to get multiple targets, not wait for them to conveniently pile up in a single hex.

 

Telekinesis is INHERENTLY INDIRECT! It works through windows and forcewalls, can touch or hit from any direction, can move things in any direction, and so forth (FREd, p 229). In the case of your spell, the Gust of Wind would begin in front of you, then could be sent out and around to hit the target from behind. Unless you have to have the effect starting from a different direction or through a brick wall (not likely with a spell) then don't pay for what you get for free!

 

Don't pay for "Does Knockback". If you Throw someone with TK, you get to throw them to the ground For Free!

 

You forgot the TK limitation "Affects whole object" for -1/4.

 

You also might be able to use the limitation "Limited Type of Object" Only bipedal beings (-1/2). The idea being that anything with four legs has enough legs to keep themselves balanced and not get thrown over.

 

Martial arts maneuvers are the ONLY guaranteed way to make someone fall to the ground in HERO. Ask Steve Long. Unfortunately, Breakfall can negate even that, so you have to work with what works best and hope your opponent doesn't have Breakfall.

 

Here's how I would build it, working with the assumption that I am only going to be using it on HERO-defined human-sized beings:

 

Gust of Wind: 15 STR Telekinesis (22.5 AP; 4 RC). Only to use the Grab and Throw maneuver (-1); Only to Throw straight down (-1/2); Affects whole object (-1/4); Limited Power: Throw Does No BODY or STUN (-3/4); Spell (-1/2); Requires A Spell Roll (-1/2); Limited Range: 25" (-1/4); Instant (-1/2); Incantations (-1/4); Gestures (-1/4)

 

And if your GM is using the Fantasy HERO rules, the 4 pt this spell costs would be further divided by 3, reducing it to a final cost of 1 pt. You cannot get any cheaper than this.

 

The 15 STR TK pretty much guarantees you'll be able to move all human-sized opponents. And the limited range is common sense; when was the last time you tried to hit something that was more than 6" or so away in a Fantasy game? The modifiers for 25" is -6. That's most Fantasy characters' base OCV!

 

PS: A CE with a -7 modifier would not make it past most GMs. The rules specifically state that CE is for MINOR effect, a -3 at best, as shown by all of the examples in the book. It also states that you shouldn't use CE to make effects that can be built with other powers just because CE might be cheaper, even though that example of CE was not cheaper than the TK.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Ah-hem.

 

The Evil Overlord (my husband) just came by and pointed out an even easier way to build this power.

 

Gust of Wind: Leg Sweep (+2 OCV, -1 DCV; STR+1d6, Target Falls), usable at range: up to 15" (+1/2) (5 AP; 1 RC); Limited Power: Throw Does No BODY or STUN (-3/4); Spell (-1/2); Requires A Spell Roll (-1/2); Incantations (-1/4); Gestures (-1/4)

 

Still comes out to only one point, and much less muss and fuss. If it absolutely has to be indirect (are you planning to use it from behind a Force Wall?) then it would make the whole thing cost 5 AP and 1 or 2 RC, depending on how you round things (1.6 pts). Still, if your GM uses the Fantasy HERO rules, the 2 RC would be divided by 3 to become 1 point again for the final cost.

 

Now you wouldn't be able to legsweep anyone heavier than your pushed STRENGTH, but that should still include most normal human-sized beings, even if your wizard only has an 8 STR!

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Just to be technical, the divide by 3 thing is a suggestion in Fantasy HERO and the standard for Turakian Age.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Ah-hem.

 

The Evil Overlord (my husband) just came by and pointed out an even easier way to build this power.

 

Gust of Wind: Leg Sweep (+2 OCV, -1 DCV; STR+1d6, Target Falls), usable at range: up to 15" (+1/2) (5 AP; 1 RC); Limited Power: Throw Does No BODY or STUN (-3/4); Spell (-1/2); Requires A Spell Roll (-1/2); Incantations (-1/4); Gestures (-1/4)

 

Still comes out to only one point, and much less muss and fuss. If it absolutely has to be indirect (are you planning to use it from behind a Force Wall?) then it would make the whole thing cost 5 AP and 1 or 2 RC, depending on how you round things (1.6 pts). Still, if your GM uses the Fantasy HERO rules, the 2 RC would be divided by 3 to become 1 point again for the final cost.

 

Now you wouldn't be able to legsweep anyone heavier than your pushed STRENGTH, but that should still include most normal human-sized beings, even if your wizard only has an 8 STR!

 

Buying the Ranged Advantage for a Martial Maneuver does not automatically apply to the STR that the maneuver itself normally adds to by default.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

...

The ONLY thing in HERO that guarantees a knockdown effect is a martial art maneuver.

 

Actually, even the martial art maneuver is not guaranteed.

 

The attacker must be able to lift the target with his pushed STR.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Hyper-Man: Hrmmm. Going to have to point that out to my hubby.

 

The real problem is that there is no way to say "I knock him down" and actually do it every time without using the Martial Arts maneuvers. If you're using the knockdown rules, it's even harder to do it with a straight out attack. Why should a player have to jump through so many hoops to get a simple effect?

 

If *I* was the GM, and a player came to me and wanted to have a power that does no damage, but just knock a guy down, I probably wouldn't quibble about the STR at range thing. I would probably still suggest building it the TK way since it would only cost a point.

 

The fact is, though, that the player is looking for a way to force his opponent to lose half a phase getting up or take the DCV penalties from remaining prone -- it may not seem like much, but in the low-powered games I play in, these penalties can turn the tide of battle for the players. Imagine the wizard using this spell on the Uberknight in his bulky armor. If the rest of the party delays to go after the wizard, they all get the benefit of the lowered DCV to coordinate their attacks or just plain wail on the bad guy. Bad-ass Knight goes from a 8 DCV to a 4 (or less if he lost his shield when he fell) and even the paladin's squire can hit him!

 

But since 99% of my characters and villains have Breakfall, I could rest assured that the wizard probably wouldn't have much effect anyway.

[EvilEmpryss]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Hyper-Man: So you're saying that a person with a 10 STR having the ability to legsweep a 440 lb being doesn't count as "close enough to a sure thing as to not matter"?

 

And that's just with a basic +5 STR for a Heroic push with no extras from the EGO roll. If he makes his EGO roll by 5, he could effectively have a 20 STR, meaning he could legsweep about 900 lbs!

 

Speaking of which, with the different ways of doing Pushes, how do you determine how much the PC "could lift with a push"? My PC has a 13- EGO roll; if I rolled a 3, I would add 15 points to my STR for the Push (+5 base for making the roll, +10 for making the roll by 10, FREd p 427). But since you don't actually make the Push roll during the legsweep maneuver, how do you determine what the ultimate strength score is? Do you give the player the benefit and assume the max result, or do you cramp them and assume they only get the basic result of +5?

 

Makes a BIG difference in this situation.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

The real problem is that there is no way to say "I knock him down" and actually do it every time without using the Martial Arts maneuvers.

 

The Martial Maneuver is just a limited variation of a Grab and subsequent FREE throw that can be made during the same phase.

 

TK is the probably the simplest way to go but some type of movement with UAA (Usable As an Attack) is equally valid.

 

example:

 

14 Sit Down!: Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (an appropriate defense must be chosen just like NND; +1) (42 Active Points); Limited Power Only to knock standing targets down (-1), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=4

 

The trick with UAA Movement is that you have to choose an appropriate defense just like you would with the NND Advantage. The Grab based maneuvers already have a defense built in (being too heavy to lift with STR or TK).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

Hyper-Man: So you're saying that a person with a 10 STR having the ability to legsweep a 440 lb being doesn't count as "close enough to a sure thing as to not matter"?

 

And that's just with a basic +5 STR for a Heroic push with no extras from the EGO roll. If he makes his EGO roll by 5, he could effectively have a 20 STR, meaning he could legsweep about 900 lbs!

 

Speaking of which, with the different ways of doing Pushes, how do you determine how much the PC "could lift with a push"? My PC has a 13- EGO roll; if I rolled a 3, I would add 15 points to my STR for the Push (+5 base for making the roll, +10 for making the roll by 10, FREd p 427). But since you don't actually make the Push roll during the legsweep maneuver, how do you determine what the ultimate strength score is? Do you give the player the benefit and assume the max result, or do you cramp them and assume they only get the basic result of +5?

 

Makes a BIG difference in this situation.

 

Having a limit based on a pushed action and actually requiring a pushed action are two quite different things.

 

I believe the idea is that in a Heroic game a character's default 'pushed STR' is their normal STR + 5 (in a Superheroic game this would be STR + 10).

 

Anyway, here are the basics and where to find more details on the matter:

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two 399

 

LEGSWEEP

This Maneuver allows a character to knock an opponent’s legs out from under him, dashing him painfully to the ground. See Martial Throw for details on the effects of, and restrictions on, Throws (for example, a character cannot Legsweep a target who weighs more than he could lift with his Pushed STR).

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two 427

 

PUSHING IN HEROIC CAMPAIGNS

A character in a Heroic campaign may push his STR or Powers up to 5 Character Points with a successful EGO Roll, +1 Character Point for every 1 point by which he makes the EGO Roll. The GM may provide a modifi er to the character’s EGO Roll based on how important the Push is. If Andarra is trying to pull a lever to save the planet Theris from being devoured by a giant space amoeba, the GM might give her a bonus to her EGO Roll. The GM should discourage more casual uses of Pushing by applying a negative modifier to the character’s EGO Roll (assuming the GM allows

Pushing at all; see above).

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

posted by EvilEmpryss

The fact is, though, that the player is looking for a way to force his opponent to lose half a phase getting up or take the DCV penalties from remaining prone -- it may not seem like much, but in the low-powered games I play in, these penalties can turn the tide of battle for the players. Imagine the wizard using this spell on the Uberknight in his bulky armor. If the rest of the party delays to go after the wizard, they all get the benefit of the lowered DCV to coordinate their attacks or just plain wail on the bad guy. Bad-ass Knight goes from a 8 DCV to a 4 (or less if he lost his shield when he fell) and even the paladin's squire can hit him!

 

But since 99% of my characters and villains have Breakfall, I could rest assured that the wizard probably wouldn't have much effect anyway.

 

Thank you. You seem to understand what I'm trying to do here. I always tend to forget the indirect nature of TK, and your first cost suggestion is a good one.

 

However I don't want to use TK as a martial maneuver if I can avoid it in a HEROIC setting. Introducing martial maneuvers as Spells for a cheaper cost than Martial Arts at range would hinder the advantage of a character using Martial Arts. Why ever take the time to study Martial Arts when I can use a spell instead for a cheaper cost?

 

Some things I would like to accomplish here.

a) teach the new player the value of skills.

simulate some creative use of spells from the Guild Wars universe.

c) knock the opponent down, not knock him back, not shove him, not legsweep him, not throw him, etc...

 

Furthermore 13 STR TK seems legit for the STR needed to push someone down.

 

Gust of Wind [Telekinesis (13 STR) AC 29 R 6], Does Knockdown Page 122-123 HSCH (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (One Hex; +1/4); Power does no damage and can only be used for knockdown (-1 1/2), Spell (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Requires A Spell Roll (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4)

[CTaylor]

Re: A Spell like effect of Knockdown.

 

The more I think about it the more I like Hyper-Man's move as an attack is the best way to go about it. I'd do it this way:

 

Gliding 1", Position Shift:

Usable as an attack (+1); Only to force target to lie down (-1), magicky defenses

 

12 active point cost, can probably get it down to 3 points or so. If you hit, they lie down, and it might even be painful as they slide to a halt.