New Power: Width Increase

[Doc Samson]

How much would a power that added [+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, x2 width and reach, and +2d6 damage for growth momentum] cost? If you guessed 25 pts. per level, you would be right.

 

Ok, so really I just got bored and decided to sum up the effects of using Growth and Shrinking at the same time. The net effect is that the character increases in width. I included an example of what I think a few levels of this would look like (courtesy of Charlie-27). I would probably also take 10 pts. of Density Increase with each level to account for the extra mass (x2 thickness would equal x4 weight).

 

1 level of Thickness (Width Increase) =

 

3 levels of Growth (5 Character Points for every +5 STR, +1 BODY, +1 STUN, -1” KB, x2 mass; 15 Character Points for every -2 DCV, +2 for PER Rolls made to perceive character, x2 height and width, and x2 reach)

+

1 level of Shrinking (10 Character Points for every x½ Height, x1⁄8 mass, -2 DCV, +3” Knockback, and -2 to all PER Rolls made against character, and +2d6 damage for growth momentum)

=

+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3 STUN, x2 width and reach, and +2d6 damage for growth momentum

 

I admit, there is no point to this post other than I think this might be a neat combo for an unusual Brick.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/White%20Dwarf.HTML

[Kenn]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

1 Level of Girth?

[Doc Samson]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/White%20Dwarf.HTML

Cool. I think Density Increase and Shrinking a good combo too.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Cool. I think Density Increase and Shrinking a good combo too.

 

In theory I agree. In practice the character had difficulties interacting with other characters and the environment due to the combination of small size and great weight.

 

I helped a player make the character, and then after seeing the result I vetoed it. However a later GM (shared campaign world) allowed it. The character was played for a handful of sessions and we all agreed it was just more trouble than it was worth to deal with.

 

Still, an interesting mechanical exercise.

 

 

Here's the game logs from the arc that character was in use:

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_CampaignLog_Arc4.aspx

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

As a side note, Charlie 27 there has about 3-4 levels of DI Always On (he's 11 times heavier than a normal person). He's stout, yes, but not that much wider than a normal person (at least by superhero standards). I don't think we need a new power for that.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Agreed, Charlie (and similarly, Puck of Alpha Flight) doesn't require any sort of power build to account for his minimal topographic deviation from norm; some combination of PhysLim and DF covers it depending on how disadvantageous the condition is.

 

There is a difference between a Power that is activated and beneficial and a permanent state of being. That's why we don't do DI / Shrinking / Growth Always On anymore, we do PhysLim (Heavy) these days.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

That's why we don't do DI / Shrinking / Growth Always On anymore' date=' we do PhysLim (Heavy) these days.[/quote']

 

Well, not all of us.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Well' date=' not all of us. [/quote']

 

Oh, I forget, you're still doing 4e right?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Oh' date=' I forget, you're still doing 4e right?[/quote']

 

No, I've just tried the 'buy stats, apply Phys Lim' thing and don't like it. I suppose it works okay for Growth and Density, but it kinda fails for me on Shrinking, especially since sometimes DCV levels don't apply and that gets wonky with shrinking.

 

That, and (power), Inherent, Persistent, Always On is just ... cleaner on a character sheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Hmmm...complete aside, but I'm thinking about making a character harder to perceive*, and it is not entirely straightforward. You probably need a self only change environment. Probably. Not ideal or straightforward.

 

If we did skills differently - like OCV/DCV, so you have some sort of target perception value, equivalent to your Perception Defensive Value, I suppose, and you check if you can be seen because the perceiver rolls 3d6 and tries to get under (their PER-your PDV). Then you could just make yourself harder to perceiveby buying PDV, like you'd buy DCV.

 

Anyway, carry on.

 

 

 

 

* There is some connection - how do you build a permanently small character?

[Doc Samson]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Hmmm...complete aside, but I'm thinking about making a character harder to perceive*, and it is not entirely straightforward. You probably need a self only change environment. Probably. Not ideal or straightforward.

 

If we did skills differently - like OCV/DCV, so you have some sort of target perception value, equivalent to your Perception Defensive Value, I suppose, and you check if you can be seen because the perceiver rolls 3d6 and tries to get under (their PER-your PDV). Then you could just make yourself harder to perceiveby buying PDV, like you'd buy DCV.

 

Anyway, carry on.

 

 

 

 

* There is some connection - how do you build a permanently small character?

I think your on target with a Self Only Change Environment (to be harder to perceive).

 

There is guidance on how to do permanently small characters in 5ER. In the Appendix there is a Size Template that describes recommended stats (such as Self Only levels with Concealment) and a Physical Disadvantage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

The trouble with a self only change environment is that the cost is per sense, so it becomes very expensive to reduce other people's ability to perceive you - much more expensive, in fact than reducing their ability to hit you which seems silly to me, and whilst levels of concealment work they only work if you are concealing yourself, whereas a small character is generally harder to spot even if they are not trying.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I don't see the issue here; the bestiary and 5er both present the size templates. The small size templates include appropriate bonuses to Stealth and Concealment per size category.

[Kenn]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I'm with CrosshairCollie.

 

Can shoot an energy burst for a moment? Buy Energy Blast.

Permanently shooting an energy burst? Buy Energy Blast, 0 END Persistent Inherent.

 

Can temporarily become denser than normal? Buy Density Increase.

Permanently denser than normal? Buy Density Increase, 0 END, Persistent, Inherent. Wait that's not allowed. WTF?

 

 

It's certainly not the only way to make permanently larger/smaller/heavier characters, and it may not be the "best" way. But to disallow it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I don't see the issue here; the bestiary and 5er both present the size templates. The small size templates include appropriate bonuses to Stealth and Concealment per size category.

 

I suppose that, as much as anything, it is a problem I have with shrinking itself. First off the power actively includes PER penalties when the character is trying to be sneaky, and so acknowledges that as a part of the power, but does so in a bit of an odd way, IMO. If I walk into a room with a fly in it and a human in it, neither of which are doing anything but sitting on the desk, I'm going to see the human, and I might or might not see the fly. The only explanation I can give is that the fly is smaller. if there is a fly sized wooden toy in the room and a fly character, the fly not using concealment or stealth, according to Hero I should be able to see the fly, as I would see the fly as I would a human sized character, but not the fly toy because that is just small.

 

I appreciate that this is one of those odd balancing things, but even so, it rankles. There should be a better way to do it and, if there is, the power should do it that way rather than half tackle the problem.

 

The other aspect is that, presumably, a skill level bought on the basis of small size would mean that all senses are affected - you make less noise, you smell less.

 

A skill level bought on the basis of being good at sneaking is not, subject to special equipment, going to make a blind bit of difference to how much you smell.

 

A fly character (say -4 on PER rolls - just as an example) and a human character - with 4 skill levels on stealth - both crawl through the stables then try and sneak into the house. The human's smell is logically more obvious simply because there is more of it, and a skill roll cannot get rid of it. The fly, whose shrinking reduces all PER rolls, smells less - until he stops sneaking about then he starts ponging as much as his human colleague.

 

So, that's what's got up my nose, I suppose.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Well...I dont have time to go thru all of that right now, but as memory serves, the Stealth Skill write up specifically talks about Stealth vs Smell as something that normally doesn't happen.

 

As far as the PER penalties, and your fly vs fly sized toy example are concerned I'm not 100% following your logic. The fly and fly sized toy should be equally difficult to detect if sitting still; if the fly is moving it should be somewhat easier to detect due to its movement.

 

Shrinking is used specifically for characters that can ALTER their size as an activation of Power, not for characters that are permanently small.

 

 

The reason is, a character should not pay points for something that is detrimental. Being unusually sized is detrimental. So, you model the the things that are good as abilities, and the things that are bad as Disadvantages. This decoupling also allows you to build characters that are not scalar; a character who is STRONGER or WEAKER than their extra size would normally indicate if built using a limited version of the Growth power, and so on.

 

It's a better / cleaner mechanical approach. The blah blah blah 0 END Persistent Always On approach is needlessly clumsy and is, pardon my french, like going around your elbow to get to your cornhole. It's a very roundabout approach with a lot of baggage to a very simple end effect --> my character is unusually sized / weighted, but gains some benefits from it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I suppose if 'not moving' is considered a for of concealment skill use, that might apply, and I'm completely on board with the fact that a moving fly is far easier to see than a stationary one - but a moving fly is still harder to see than a moving human - and whether you use shrinking or just a template for a smaller creature, if I'm right, the PER penalty for others only applies if the character is using stealth or concealment - and not otherwise.

 

There is no way in Hero to adjust your base perceivability in the same way you can adjust your base DCV - you can only, in effect, increase your skill level.

 

Well, I say no way - you could buy invisibility and make it RSR based on your stealth roll, which you adjust to reflect your size...but that is clunky.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I'm still not following your disconnect here.

 

Concealment is explicitly for not moving things to be difficult to perceive. Stealth is explicitly for moving things to be difficult to perceive.

 

The Skill roll bonus can either be used as a bonus to an actual skill roll, or in extremis as a direct penalty to a PER roll as it amounts to the same thing. Aside from the opportunity for 3's and 18's to wrench up the probabilities; a +8 to Concealment / Stealth is synonymous with a -8 to PER.

 

([Concealment / Stealth] +8)- = Target for PER-

or

([Concealment / Stealth])- = Target for (PER-8)-

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I'm with CrosshairCollie.

 

Can shoot an energy burst for a moment? Buy Energy Blast.

Permanently shooting an energy burst? Buy Energy Blast, 0 END Persistent Inherent.

 

Can temporarily become denser than normal? Buy Density Increase.

Permanently denser than normal? Buy Density Increase, 0 END, Persistent, Inherent. Wait that's not allowed. WTF?

 

 

It's certainly not the only way to make permanently larger/smaller/heavier characters, and it may not be the "best" way. But to disallow it?

 

As I understand it, the official line is that Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking are for characters who can change size and mass. If your size or mass is merely a state of being, you should go with the 'buy stats, take Phys Lim' approach, which I agree makes some sense. It's not a power, it just IS.

 

Though this doesn't work for permanently Desolid characters, which creates something of an inconsistency, but I digress.

 

I prefer the Inherent and Always On approach simply for its simplicity. It gets everything you need on two lines of the character sheet (maybe 3 if you enumerate the bonuses), instead of having to clutter up the sheet with 'Small: +2 DCV', 'Small: +2 to Concealment, self only' etc etc etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Unlike Growth, Shrinking, and DI, Desolid is not a bundle of misc game effects wrapped in a stepped mechanic with a label attached to it. Desolid is a flat cost for a flat effect ability. You don't have 3 levels of Desolid, you just have Desolid.

[Kenn]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Which begs the idea that the powers of Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking shouldn't exist at all. The assorted miscellaneous game effects could still be bought separately, with the limitations of "Costs END" and/or "linked" and labeling the becoming temporarily big, small, or heavy "special effect." Probably coming in 6th Edition.

 

But right now, they ARE (still) grouped together. And the "you can use the 'pre-existing grouping' if it's not permanent, but if it is permanent you can't, but you should use it as a guideline" rule does nothing but add complexity and restrictions to the rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Which begs the idea that the powers of Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking shouldn't exist at all. The assorted miscellaneous game effects could still be bought separately, with the limitations of "Costs END" and/or "linked" and labeling the becoming temporarily big, small, or heavy "special effect." Probably coming in 6th Edition.

 

Actually, there's no other way well-defined to manipulate a characters size or weight, sadly. *

 

(* short of Multiform or minor adjustments allowed by Shape Shift or rather vague uses of Transform)

 

If there were a "Attribute Alteration" Power that just allowed a character to alter their Height, Width, Length, and Weight we could get rid of Growth, Shrinking, DI, Stretching, Shape Shift vs Touch (possibly one of the most confusing things in the game), weird uses of Desolid only to fit through small spaces, and also gain an ability currently lacking altogether without heavy mods or weird uses of movement powers --> the ability to lower ones own weight without also shrinking.

 

 

But right now, they ARE (still) grouped together. And the "you can use the 'pre-existing grouping' if it's not permanent, but if it is permanent you can't, but you should use it as a guideline" rule does nothing but add complexity and restrictions to the rules.

 

As previously noted, Growth, Shrinking, and DI are the only available way to alter one's size or weight, mechanically.

 

As far as complexity, that's a subjective. The bundled power approach requires the addition of multiple extra modifiers to create a rather unimpressive effect; essentially for a generally LESS GOOD version of said powers, a character has to take on Advantages, and then add a very poorly valued Lim. Not only does the AO Lim not accurately indicate the gimping inherent to it, but the entire approach also creates a situation where a character has to spend extra points in order to add something detrimental which is counter to the normal HERO System approach of pay for bennies get kickback for detriments. Also, as soon as you want to model a character that doesn't scale in accordance with the bundled benefits represented by each level of Growth / Shrinking / DI you either have to break out of the model or handwaive it away. Three different powers are used for this as well, with slightly different effect steps. One character might have Shrinking 0ENDPERAO at whatever step and another might have Growth 0ENDPERAO, and another DI 0ENDPERAO. I've seen some with a combination of Growth and DI or Shrinking and DI in order to attempt to hit different mass points. Talk about messy.

 

I'd call that complex.

 

On the other hand the "buy the good stuff you want" and "represent the disadvantages with a...gasp...DISADVANTAGE" approach decouples the effects from the detriment, tracks the detriment in the correct area of the character, and works the same for all bigger, shorter, heavier characters. It fully supports characters that are stronger or weaker or more or less tough, etc, than their size and or weight would indicate. It's a single unified mechanic that is flexible and scalable.

 

I'd call that simplified.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

I'm still not following your disconnect here.

 

Concealment is explicitly for not moving things to be difficult to perceive. Stealth is explicitly for moving things to be difficult to perceive.

 

The Skill roll bonus can either be used as a bonus to an actual skill roll, or in extremis as a direct penalty to a PER roll as it amounts to the same thing. Aside from the opportunity for 3's and 18's to wrench up the probabilities; a +8 to Concealment / Stealth is synonymous with a -8 to PER.

 

([Concealment / Stealth] +8)- = Target for PER-

or

([Concealment / Stealth])- = Target for (PER-8)-

 

 

OK - concealment and stealth are skills that have to be used to give effect - they are non-persistant and not considered always on even though they cost no END. They require sfx, like everything else in Hero, and the sfx of default, to me are 'hiding' for concealment - (rather than just not moving) and 'moving carefully' for stealth (rather than just moving). Therefore someone standing still would not (at least the way I've always played it) be considered to be using concealment, and if they tried 'hiding in plain sight' they would be doing so at a pretty impressive penalty, if I allowed it at all.

 

Now 'logically' (and I think it is justified to use logic as 'small' is a build and even 'shrinking' is an attempt to bring together several abilities that constitute a particular sfx) a small creature is harder to notice ALL of the time, and very hard to perceive at all if they are actively concealing themselves or using stealth. The way shrinking and the size templates are set up does not reflect that as they use, effectively, skill bonuses, rather than perception penalties (even though they are expressed as perception penalties in the shrinking power).

 

I may not be remembering it right but I think the PER penalties for shrinking used to (pre 5th) be 'universal' i.e. not linked to skill use. Could well be wrong on that though.

 

I can see why they are not universal - as the book says - it should not be a cheap form of invisibility - but if we are modelling 'small', perhaps it should be, even if that makes the base power more expensive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Width Increase

 

Of course I could be horribly wrong about concealment and stealth needing any kind of active use at all. Play the video and count the number of passes the white team make.

 

Post your answers here

 

http://viscog.beckman.uiuc.edu/grafs/demos/15.html