Modified EC

[slaughterj]

I've been thinking about a new power framework, namely a modified Elemental Control (see FH section for FH-specific uses). The current EC is useful for getting unified character concepts and providing a point break for such. However, due to the lower costs of defenses vs. offenses, and other varying power costs, ECs are of limited use for containing the full array of concept-based powers. This results in allowing Drains to work on all the EC powers, but not the attack powers in the attack powers MP (without adding a limitation to the MP), though clearly many character concepts have the attack powers in the MP and the other powers in the EC due to the same central power source, e.g., Fire Mutation.

 

Since ECs generally "halve" the cost of the powers within, the modified EC I'm considering operates the same way, "halves" the cost of the powers within (still have buy the EC itself, based on the cost of the highest power within), but doesn't require the powers to have a minimum power level to be included. This makes drains more complex to handle potentially, but there are two ways of handling this: either (1) handle it the regular way, and the lesser point powers will be more readily drained and quickly disappear, or (2) evaluate how much of the specific power was drained (e.g., half), and apply the same proportionate reduction to the other powers in the modified EC.

 

Here's some examples:

 

Typical Superheroic Fire Powers EC:

EC: 15pts

- Flight, 15" - 15pts

- FF, 15PD/15ED - 15pts

- EB, 10D6 - 35pts

(Bought Separately) Heat Vision (IR Vision) - 5pts

 

Modified Superheroic Fire Powers EC:

EC: 25pts

- Flight, 15" - 15pts

- FF, 15PD/15ED - 15pts

- EB, 10D6 - 25pts

- Heat Vision - 2.5pts

 

Note that the cost for the EC itself only went up as much as the highest power went down, and obviously at half price, Flight and FF remained the same, but now Heat Vision was able to be added in which makes sense since the character concept was such that it stemmed from the same power source. This also frees up the Flight and FF to not have to be set at the same level as one another, as it was subtlely forced to be with a regular EC.

 

Thoughts?

[zornwil]

Well, I did something essentially identical for a long time. Basically, you paid full price for the largest power and all the rest you halved, which in essence is what you have. I dropped it only because I felt it was one of too many modifications to the system and was probably getting annoying for players. It didn't seem to hurt game balance.

 

I will forewarn you that overall it saves more points on PCs, especially if the EC is set high enough, you end up with lots of those smaller powers that now are half-priced. But you probably know this already.

[Farkling]

That's the way Champions modelled EC's back when they published the rules chipped onto those Stone Tablets...it's not a new idea...

 

As a GM you are within your rights to mandate that characters MUST take the 1/4 limitation on unified powers so they are "affected by Drains to EC"

as GM you can apply it as a -0 limitation.

Of course...with the low-end powers it doesn't matter so much whether they are drained or not...and the +2 Drain/Suppress will hit them anyway. in the comics the small powers are usually the last to go...or get missed. So for dramatic effect, I would think that some should NOT be part of the EC "suite"

 

With all due respect to the publishers of the gaming books, and characters excepting the stated rules, the publishers stated that you can change the rules you don't like, and they do for the Champions Multiverse. IMHO, a Multipower (of attack/movement powers) and an Elemental Control on the same character are typically all the same special effects. Any other designation just may be cleverly disguised munchkin applications...

Dramatically though, it would imply that the character has much greater control over the powers in the Multipower. (and I HATE these constructs! I personally am annoyed by EC's containing Movement and Defense powers, while the 5 attack slots are in a seperate Multipower. I see munchkins!!!)

 

Now, IF I let a character following the EC/Mpower construct into a game....I will advise them to take the 1/4 limitation on the MPower unless they can justify a reason NOT to. Also, the +2 advantage for "all special effects of X" will drain the Multipower reserve and the slots and the EC...the "two powers" will drain the EC and the MPower reserve, regardless of the target. but EC's do grant such large savings.

 

All but one character in my current game were designed and turned in with EC's. I thought it was for the point savings, but it was because the GM that taught them to play HERO rebuilt EVERY PC using MPower (attacks) and EC's (defenses and movement) on the beginning characters. My six new players thought that all characters had to have EC's and it was the only way to get enough powers per point spent...

 

So, after going over the characters with everyone...there is ONE EC left (for a variant of Storm)...two EC's converted very easily to Multipowers (one is very Prfessor X, one is a REAL Archangel..."Wheels" saved much better points as a Multipower...and dropped a PILE of point mongering limitations.

 

whatever rules you use are your own preference. I dislike multiple power frameworks in most cases...but I remember the old days, and do NOT like the old style EC rules...characters would frequently buy a whole suite of enhanced senses and trivial powers that may/may not fit character concept (without pretzel application), simply because the powers were CHEAP.

 

I also do not prefer the old style Martial Arts rules...but the new ones didn't quite fix it for me...I seek a middle alternative. A discussion for another thread.

[Farkling]

As a footnote,

 

Zorn said

I will forewarn you that overall it saves more points on PCs, especially if the EC is set high enough, you end up with lots of those smaller powers that now are half-priced. But you probably know this already.

 

From a POWERS ONLY standpoint

The old style rules twisters would buy a 76 point power, a 60 point (30) power, and a 6 of 50 pointers (25 each)....that saves a great amount of points...256 points.

 

Under the current EC rules::

25 = EC Reserve (50 point powers)

150 = 6 50 pointers

35 = 1 60 pointer

51 = 1 76 pointer

 

261 points

 

Now extending this....

A new 70 point power costs your player 35 points,

and a "by the book" FREd player 45 points.

 

It adds up for powers fast...let alone the half price on the minor abilities also.

 

Additionally...power limitations are more effective on more points...so there is yet more abuse available. Let's put OAF on the whole EC now...

Old Style 76/2 (38) + 30/2 (15) + 6 @ 25/2 (12) = 125

FREd Style 25/2 + 150/2 + 35/2 + 51/2 = 129

 

And adding the new power costs

Old Style : 17

FREd Style: 22

 

Extend this out for 5 or 6 new powers, and the EC character is even cheaper your way...

 

that's it....I just figured someone should see numbers to back up Zorn's declaration...

 

And just think...people are STILL complaining about how underpriced Elemental Controls are...

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Farkling

that's it....I just figured someone should see numbers to back

 

Thanks, I really was just too lazy to go through the math!

[Farkling]

i've gone through all the math before...it's one of the reasons I dislike multiple frameworks on a character...

 

this was off the top of my head, and the old school example is numbers from a long running game...it's CLOSE to how he built his powers...he spent a lot of time with a calculator figuring the best cost break for what he wanted...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

i've gone through all the math before...it's one of the reasons I dislike multiple frameworks on a character...

 

this was off the top of my head, and the old school example is numbers from a long running game...it's CLOSE to how he built his powers...he spent a lot of time with a calculator figuring the best cost break for what he wanted...

 

The simple fact is that it's a point-based game so people will look to get the most for their points. Multiple power frameworks are one way of accomplishing that. Having multiple attacks in an EC generally isn't as effective as having them in a multipower, even if that results in a non-attacks EC plus an attacks multipower.

 

That said, if you don't like the structure, there's no reason to allow it. But to be reasonable, the opposition also has to have that efficiency removed. That's the "great equalizer" of ppints mongering - if the player can do it, so can the NPC's. If the players get to use a construct that saves 25 points, the NPC's also use that construct to access the same savings.

[Farkling]

Which one of my so-called friends told you I was unreasonable Hugh? It's time to re-evaluate his character sheet....

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Which one of my so-called friends told you I was unreasonable Hugh? It's time to re-evaluate his character sheet....

 

Rereading my post, the point I was dancing around never actually comes out. Most of us use published material and characters to some extent. If we vary from the norm for the game world, we need to do a lot more work to integrate the published material.

 

That might involve updating defenses because our average campaign defenses exceed (or fall short of) the norm for CU. Maybe attacks have to change.

 

If you disallow multiple power frameworks, there's a lot of work to be done bringing the NPC's back in line, or they're all more powerful than the PC's and we hear lots of reasonably justified whining. That means more than just paying full points for the abilities and adding to XP. Otherwise, all the opponents have an extra 100 points to play with, so now their numbers have to fall to make an equal playing field.

 

And if I want to eliminate half the stats (reference to other thread), I get to rewrite all the characters I decide to use.

 

It's a matter of taste - I do generally revise the characters I use, because my campaign doesn't always match the CU nmorm. But that means I have to do a lot more work than someone shose campaign matches the norm - he just pulls out Eurostar and he's got the evening's villains. I pull out Eurostar, paper, pen and calculator, and start redrafting them.

[Farkling]

to each his own.

 

I think the only published stuff I use from the Champions universe is some of the names of the organizations...I prefer homebrewed supervillains...that way I can tailor some of them, and make others generic.

 

Come to think of it...the conversion to house rules would be a contributing factor to why I prefer my own...some Universe sourcebooks break their own rules, some are campy, and some are just odd...

 

I also dislike having another source of print available that some lawyer can use to say "but the game creators did it this way".

 

Ah, I do miss the days of "but it isn't like that in the Enemies book!", and I will always fondly remember the character who found Sue Ellen McCormick's NPC writeup and panicked when he saw "Evil Shapeshifting Mutant from Another Dimension" written under "Character Type" ... he tried to do some horrible things to her, and to expose her for almost a year in game time.... heh heh heh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

to each his own.

 

I think the only published stuff I use from the Champions universe is some of the names of the organizations...I prefer homebrewed supervillains...that way I can tailor some of them, and make others generic.

 

I use the CU stuff, steal freely from other games and (generally less popular, older or otherwise not well known) comics, and use my own characters. I generally do a full rewrite on anything CU anyway, so it doesn't bug me if I dffer from the norm.

 

I haven't read a lot of 5e, but I do recall some older stuff explicitly saying "we're breaking the rules here", and others that hadn't been proofread very well.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Ah, I do miss the days of "but it isn't like that in the Enemies book!", and I will always fondly remember the character who found Sue Ellen McCormick's NPC writeup and panicked when he saw "Evil Shapeshifting Mutant from Another Dimension" written under "Character Type" ... he tried to do some horrible things to her, and to expose her for almost a year in game time.... heh heh heh.

 

That's another flaw in the system. Ideally, only the GM would have anything beyond the core rules, but in most games, there's more than one GM. Generally, I do enough modifying that the character isn't any more recognizable than a generic character of that type.