Mass musings

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

 

* EDIT: the 160 shots are not enough neither.

160 times DCx is not the same as DC(x*160)

160 X 177 = 28320 = only DC8.

 

Correction: i was in "log mode"....

 

So, yes, it would destroy Earth because of stacking BODY dmg..... (linearity is the root of all evil...)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

Correction: i was in "log mode"....

 

So, yes, it would destroy Earth because of stacking BODY dmg..... (linearity is the root of all evil...)

 

The square root of all evil, surely...

 

It is going to be quite difficult to get some people's head's round the idea of logs and exponential progressions, but anyone using Hero uses them whether they realise it or not. The trick is to get them to not notice.

 

I suggested a system for Body damage that worked along the lines of :

 

(Full Body): 1 hit

(Full Body-1): 2 hits

(Full Body -2): 4 hits

...etc

 

Accurate, but horrible to administer.

 

A quick fix, which compromises mathematical precision and practicality is the thing I suggested about (Full Body-X) takes longer to cause damage/requires more hits.

 

X is a number you pick and agree on but 20 sounds about right so you never have to worry about it in most heroic games with characters. 20 is actually far too big a number but I don't want this to come up that much in actual play - just in more extreme situations, where it is silly for a lot of small attacks to destroy something big.

 

Basically the idea is that if you cause less than Bodyoftarget-20 damage in one hit, the damage is not caused unless you devote a full turn to doing it, and then each 5 points below that adds another point on the time chart: Bodyoftarget-25 you have to devote a minute to causing the damage, and so on.

 

The reason I'm using the time chart rather than extra attacks (which would again be more accurate) is book keeping - and it is easy to understand 'It'll take a week of work to get through that', compared to 'It'll take 131072 attacks at 5 Body per attack to get through that'.

 

It is just a nod, but hopefully a nod in the right direction.

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

I see what you mean.

I was thinking about the same thing yesterday night =>

 

Let's say we don't want to modify DCs (it would be a real pain I.T.A)

So:

- Purchase BODY as usual.

- The actual BODY used when taking damage is (BODY/5)+8 (let's call it mBody)

(This is the same as item's BODY computed from MASS. You called is mass based Body.)

 

 

mBody minus body damage:

0 = 100 %

1 = 50 %

2 = 25 %

3 = 12.5 %

4 = 6.25 %

5 = 3.125 %

6 = 1.5625 %

7 = 0.78125 %

8 = 0.390625 %

9 = 0.1953125 %

10 = 0.09765625 %

11 = 0.048828125 %

12 = 0.0244140625 %

13 = 0.01220703125 %

14 = 0.006103515625 %

15 = 0.0030517578125 %

16 = 0.00152587890625 %

17 = 0.000762939453125 %

18 = 0.000381469726563 %

19 = 0.000190734863281 %

20 = 9.53674316406E-005 %

21 = 4.76837158203E-005 %

22 = 2.38418579102E-005 %

23 = 1.19209289551E-005 %

24 = 5.96046447754E-006 %

25 = 2.98023223877E-006 %

 

% is equals to 100/(2^d) where d is the difference between damage and mBody.

 

This means that 13 damage pts are equals to 6.25% of mBody 17.

 

....and.....10 damage pts are equals to 00000.9% of mBody 30......

 

That's problematic.... The Log2 scale was fun in MEGS but it's not appropriate for a "generic" game.

 

 

 

PS: i must say something: i hope all those discussions will lead to the conclusion that there's no real need to change anything. But right now i don't see this tunnel's end.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

I see what you mean.

I was thinking about the same thing yesterday night =>

 

Let's say we don't want to modify DCs (it would be a real pain I.T.A)

So:

- Purchase BODY as usual.

- The actual BODY used when taking damage is (BODY/5)+8 (let's call it mBody)

(This is the same as item's BODY computed from MASS. You called is mass based Body.)

 

 

mBody minus body damage:

0 = 100 %

1 = 50 %

2 = 25 %

3 = 12.5 %

4 = 6.25 %

5 = 3.125 %

6 = 1.5625 %

7 = 0.78125 %

8 = 0.390625 %

9 = 0.1953125 %

10 = 0.09765625 %

11 = 0.048828125 %

12 = 0.0244140625 %

13 = 0.01220703125 %

14 = 0.006103515625 %

15 = 0.0030517578125 %

16 = 0.00152587890625 %

17 = 0.000762939453125 %

18 = 0.000381469726563 %

19 = 0.000190734863281 %

20 = 9.53674316406E-005 %

21 = 4.76837158203E-005 %

22 = 2.38418579102E-005 %

23 = 1.19209289551E-005 %

24 = 5.96046447754E-006 %

25 = 2.98023223877E-006 %

 

% is equals to 100/(2^d) where d is the difference between damage and mBody.

 

This means that 13 damage pts are equals to 6.25% of mBody 17.

 

....and.....10 damage pts are equals to 00000.9% of mBody 30......

 

That's problematic.... The Log2 scale was fun in MEGS but it's not appropriate for a "generic" game.

 

 

What we need is a chart.....

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

What we need is a chart.....

 

 

to hide reality ? (isn't it called 'cheating' ? )

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

I also liked - in theory - the Mayfair games stab at DC Heroes, which worked on an exponential scale. It used a common set of units to define everything from strength to speed to the ability to store data, making all sorts of tricks quite straightforward (want to know how long it takes to memorise a chunk of data? Subtract your INT from the amount of DATA and the answer is the TIME it takes.

 

In practice I did not think it worked as well as it might: the difference in characteristics always seemed too great - it lacked sufficient granularity.

 

 

that's why i talk about decibels in my signature.

This scale is :

Rank = 10 * Log(Value) (note: Log in base 10)

Value = 10^(Rank/10) = (¹°√10)^Rank

 

-10 : 0.1 10cm / 1 joule

-9: 0.13

-8: 0.16

-7: 0.2

-6: 0.25 1km/h

-5: 0.32

-4: 0.4

-3: 0.5

-2: 0.63

-1: 0.79

0 : 1 kg / 1seconde / 1 mètre / 1 m/s / 10 joules

1: 1.3

2: 1.6 Average human height

3: 2 Average human height

4: 2.5

5: 3.2

6: 4

7: 5

8: 6.3

9: 7.9

10: 10

11: 13

12: 16

13: 20

14: 25

15: 32

16: 40

17: 50

18: 63 1mn / Average human weight

19: 79 Average human weight

20: 100 Average human weight

21: 130

22: 160

23: 200

24: 250

25: 320

26: 400

27: 500

28: 630

29: 790

30: 1000 1t / 1km

....

Some properties:

Each +1 rank = +25.89%

Each +3 ranks = X2

Each +10 ranks = X10

 

The scale is a unlimited repetition, in both directions of:

0 : 1

1: 1.3

2: 1.6

3: 2

4: 2.5

5: 3.2

6: 4

7: 5

8: 6.3

9: 7.9

10: 10

 

It may be rounded like that:

0 : 1

1: 1.25

2: 1.5

3: 2

4: 2.5

5: 3

6: 4

7: 5

8: 6

9: 8

10: 10

 

 

 

How to convert from reality:

You want the mass rank of 12000 kg:

There are four "X10" in 12000 = rank 40

and it's multipled by 1.2 = add 1 to the rank (look the chart, Rank 1 = 1.3)

final rank = 41.

 

Some examples:

85 : Light speed

-60 : mass of a mosquito

248 : mass of Earth

303: mass of the Sun

 

Reverse-conversion:

Look at the mass rank of Earth: 248

This is twenty four X10 multiplied by 6.3 (the value of rank 8= 6.3)

so:

6 300 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 kg

(actually Earth's mass is 5,9742 × 10^24 kg but as always with integer logarithms we have to round.)

etc.

 

Now start to imagine that rolls are 0 centered, for instance 2d6-2d6...... if you roll -3 you know that you only get 50% of your average non-random capacity.....if you substact 3 from your effect rank then it will actually deliver 50% of its efficiency......... if you roll +5 you get 320% of your average capacity......if you add 5 to your effect rank then it will actually deliver 320% of its efficiency......... if your physical resistance is 20 and you're hurt by a rank 13 attack, this is only 1/5 of your resistance (actually with such a scale wounds better occur when the damage rank is greater than your resistance rank which is, on the average, equal to your mass rank).......if "abilities" costs come from their rank, applied advantages or limitation may be simple + or - on the cost rank ........falling damage on Earth using the potential energy equation is equal to mass+height ..........etc.

 

I have the conviction that such a system mixed with Hero's powers and flexibility ideas would be the very Grail of all RPG engines.

 

 

Conversion from Hero's Str like CHARs =

Hero's CHAR = ((Rank-14)/3) * 5

Rank= (3/5 * Hero's CHAR) +14

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

[tired mode]

The more i think about Hero's BODY problem, the more i think it was total stupidity to mix linear and exponential scales and i see no simple way to fix it. That s**** beyond human understanding How can a system put together very delicate powers crafting and silliness like "you may destroy a planet with a bucket of dynamite sticks and/or 50 character points" is.......wow.....i can't find the words.....

Will it be changed in H6, that's the very big question.

[end of tired mode]

i'm really sorry, it makes me mad

 

 

PS:....unless each Earth's hexes has 85 Body ?

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72566