Mass musings

[Sean Waters]

I've been walling the dog again and pondering mass, Body, defence and their interaction with damage in Hero. A lot of this is probably of limited practical application, but I find it interesting.

 

Minor point, but worth mentioning: we assume that an average person has a mass of 100kg, which is an awful lot. Perhaps it would not hurt to re-appraise that to the 65-75kg range. Assuming that 1 Body of a generic material (like flesh) = the amount you could lift with 1 Str (and so an object of 30 Body would have the mass a Str of 30 could lift: 1600kg) that would put an average person's Body in the 7-8 range, which fits in with the non-heroic mould of character.

 

In fact, when building a character it might not be a bad idea, at least conceptually, to divide Body into that which is attributable to mass and that which is attributable to other stuff, like will to live, increased toughness or having a really weird physiology.

 

That would mean that even a superheroic character would have a limit on the amount of 'base body' they could purchase: assuming that humans tend to fall in the range of 43 - 150 kg (95 lbs to 330 lbs, or nearly 7 stone to over 23 stone), with very few exceptions, and most in the range 57 to 100 kg (126 to 220 lbs or 9 to 15 stone).

 

That equates to a 'Base Body' range of 4(for a 43 kg person) to 13 (for a 150kg person).

 

I quite like the idea of having that sort of calculation - but it certainly is not the whole story.

 

If you start with a mass calcuated Body score you could then modify it, depending on campaign guidelines. I know a normal human can theoretically acheive a Body of 20, but that seems ridiculous to me.

 

Of course that means that you could have zero, or even negative Body scores for particularly small objects. That does not mean they start off destroyed, but it does mean that even a single point of Body damage through defences could destroy them.

 

Now it seems to me that we have issues with Body. If you look at page 449 we give values to various Body scores, working on +1 Body = a doubling of mass. The way I'm suggesting works differently: +5 Body = a doubling of mass. Also that table, and I really do not get this, gives a higher Body score for a living object than an unliving one. Why should a living human be harder to obliterate than a corpse?

 

No, we need to homogenise Body, IMO, but work on the way that a given object takes damage, based on its properties.

 

In Heroic games, wehre you use impairing and disabling rules, bleeding and hit locations, a living object would be more vulnerable to Body damage than an unliving one - well - a living body would be exactly as vulnerable as an unliving one but likely to become an unliving one before completely destroyed.

 

Of course we then have the whole 'negative Body' thing too, which confuses the issue - I suspect we are talking about various things and calling them the same thing, which is confusing: negative 'deterioration' damage doesn't really damage the corpus that much but does damage the anima, the life in the corpus.

 

Often the distinction is meaningless: dead is dead, but sometimes whether the Body is destroyed is important.

 

The system I'm suggesting is basically exponential, but then so it the treatment of Body in Hero already. It is just that my way you need 400 odd Body to destroy the Earth, as opposed to 80 odd.

 

An exponential system implies that, unless you get somewhere near the Body total in damage, the actual damage is much less than the numbers suggest: +5 Body would mean having to do twice as much damage, +10 means 4x as much and so on.

 

Here is a way to simulate how that works: unless the damage an attack does gets within a certain number of to total Body of an object it takes no Body damage. Say that number was +20: if you are a 30 Body character you can basically ignore any damage that does less than 10 Body.

 

That is not completely realistic, but works pretty well in practice. For a more realistic approach, assume that any damage in the -25 to -21 range causes the stated damage but takes longer: each -5 moves you up the time chart one point.

 

That would mean, using the above example, a 30 Body character exposed to damage in the 5-9 range for a full turn would take damage in the 5-9 range, or, if exposed to damage in the 1-4 range for a full minute would take damage in that range.

 

That would mean you could nickel and dime the Earth to destruction, but it would take almost literally forever.

 

Hmm. I've ambushed my own post a bit here - I'm a little off target, but what do you think of the show so far?

[lemming]

Re: Mass musings

 

Since Body is one of those stats that derives from more than one thing.

 

Sure, Mass does fall into it, especially for inanimate objects, but for characters, there's also the will to survive.

[secretID]

Re: Mass musings

 

This reminds me of the V&V system - lots of things were based on mass. It was kind of cool in that it naturally tied some things together.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

Can I just point out, before someone else does, that I was actually walking the dog, not walling him. Walling is on Tuesdays.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

Since Body is one of those stats that derives from more than one thing.

 

Sure, Mass does fall into it, especially for inanimate objects, but for characters, there's also the will to survive.

 

There is, but that should not affect the ability of the Body to actually take damage. Clone someone and give one of the two a strong will to survive and that one will take more damage before dying but they will take identical damage before the destruction of their body (with a small 'b').

 

What I am suggesting, or working up to, is that certain types of damage might have different effects, and I have not quite gone there yet because the idea is still a bit nascent. In essence, however, you might have 10 Body because you have a 220lbs mass, and you might have +5 Body defined as the will to survive.

 

To 'destroy' something you need to do 2x Body. I'm not entirely happy with that.

 

I'd say that:

1x starting Body makes the thing non-functional but repairable.

2x starting Body 'breaks' something beyond repair.

4x starting Body destroys something - the original form can be detected, but that is all.

8x starting Body annihilates something - you couldn't derive any information about what it was.

 

To differentiate for this discussion i am going to refer to Body that means a thing is alive as Life. Body that means something retains structural integrity will still be called Body.

 

For most purposes Life = Body, once you have taken Life in damage you are dead or dying. You are non-functional but repairable.

 

If Life exceeds Body then you can remain functional even though 'broken, or remain alive even though you can not be repaired.

 

For most characters therefore there is no point in having a Life or more than twice Body: Once you have taken twice Body you are never getting better.

 

Characters with access to healing and regeneration may be able to return even from those points. If your Life is high enough you could even return from being 'destroyed'. You can never return from being annihilated through healing or regeneration no matter how high your Life is.

 

These are just ideas I'm kicking around and trying to link up, but I can see the bones of something there...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

This reminds me of the V&V system - lots of things were based on mass. It was kind of cool in that it naturally tied some things together.

 

I also liked - in theory - the Mayfair games stab at DC Heroes, which worked on an exponential scale. It used a common set of units to define everything from strength to speed to the ability to store data, making all sorts of tricks quite straightforward (want to know how long it takes to memorise a chunk of data? Subtract your INT from the amount of DATA and the answer is the TIME it takes.

 

In practice I did not think it worked as well as it might: the difference in characteristics always seemed too great - it lacked sufficient granularity.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mass musings

 

Two things: first, i'm hiring you a dog walking service to cut down on your strange musings...

 

Second; starting/average/base Mass could be assumed to be 50-100kg as a range rather than a flat number.

 

That way Halving gives you a 25-50kg range and Doubling gives you a 100-200kg range.

 

Body Characteristic and Mass should not be directly related. Body is how hard it is to get killed, which may or may not have anything to do with how much mass you have though more mass is a good SFX for higher Body, it's not an absolute.

 

If you were to create a Mass Stat, it could follow a similar path to STR, every +5 in the Stat doubles Mass. A Normal likely, like everything else, has a Mass Stat of 8 (9 if you're American... I kid!).

[lemming]

Re: Mass musings

 

Can I just point out' date=' before someone else does, that I was actually walking the dog, not walling him. Walling is on Tuesdays.[/quote']

 

I just thought it was some weird UK expression.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

I just thought it was some weird UK expression.

 

 

One of those strange country euphemisms? Lordy what must you think of some of the other colloquialisms I use?

 

[Lucius]

Re: Mass musings

 

I just thought it was some weird UK expression.

 

Sean Waters IS a weird UK expression.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A weird palindromedary expression

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Mass musings

 

Sean Waters IS a weird UK expression.

At least' date=' his [i']avatar[/i] is.

 

Going to the original question, a rule I suggested in TUV but that has never gained much momentum is that 3X BODY damage effectively destroys everything. In TUV, a vehicle that's at negative its normal BODY is destroyed beyond repair, but can be salvaged; at negative twice its normal BODY, there isn't even enough to get spare parts. Extending that to organic characters, negative your BODY means you're dead, and negative twice your BODY means you're pulverized. (That's subject to Special Effects, of course.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

 

Anyway...

 

I thought that -2x Body was 'totally destroyed' (isn't it?), but I'm not sure that is enough damage to completely volatalise something down to the component atoms.

 

I'm just thinking - and I hope this never gets quoted out of context - the amount of damage you have to do to someone to kill them, you do that again, the body is still, basically, still there. Dismembering a body takes a hell of a lot of effort. I'd think you'd need a lot more damage than that to utterly destroy something. Well, you do, whenever I've tried it

[Vondy]

Re: Mass musings

 

Haven't you heard? Obesity rates are up.

[Kenn]

Re: Mass musings

 

Does Mass really apply unless you're Catholic or Anglican?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mass musings

 

Does Mass really apply unless you're Catholic or Anglican?

 

:plol

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

Assuming that 1 Body of a generic material (like flesh) = the amount you could lift with 1 Str (and so an object of 30 Body would have the mass a Str of 30 could lift: 1600kg) that would put an average person's Body in the 7-8 range' date=' which fits in with the non-heroic mould of character.[/quote']

 

Actually no:

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/body.php

 

There are three scales in Hero :

 

The first one works on a log with a ⁵√2 base. (+5 = X2)

Eg. STR, MASS,etc...

- value of STR x or MASS x = 25*((⁵√2)^x) kg

 

The other one works on a log with a ²√2 base (+2 = X2)

Eg. VF , RMod.

- value of VF x = 16*(( ²√2)^x) inches per turn

- value of RMod x = 4*(( ²√2)^x) inches

 

 

The last one works on a log with a base 2. (+1 = X2)

Eg. BODY, DC, ROLLS

 

- DC x = 64*(2^x-1) J (i don't care some would disagree with that , the VF rules are a proof.) EDIT: it seems i talked to fast about J and DC, it seems it's wrong but it's late so i'll verify that tomorrow

EDIT: fix here : http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/joules.php

 

- Look at the BODY charts of vehicles.

You will see that for a given mass in kg BODY=8+(functionA(m)/5) and MASS=functionA(m)

where m=mass in kg and functionA(m)=log of m/25 in base ⁵√2.

 

This means that BODY is very close to the equivalent "ROLL-" of MASS (but with a 8+ instead of 9+.)

 

 

That equates to a 'Base Body' range of 4(for a 43 kg person) to 13 (for a 150kg person).

 

It should be BODY 9 for the 43kg person and BODY 11 for the 150 kg one.

 

But i know what you could say => HERO is not 100% logarithmic....so we found monstrous modifiers like 1/3 BODY, 2X BODY, etc....which should not exist in a pure system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

Actually no:

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/body.php

 

There are three scales in Hero :

 

The first one works on a log with a ⁵√2 base. (+5 = X2)

Eg. STR, MASS,etc...

- value of STR x or MASS x = 25*((⁵√2)^x) kg

 

The other one works on a log with a ²√2 base (+2 = X2)

Eg. VF , RMod.

- value of VF x = 16*(( ²√2)^x) inches per turn

- value of RMod x = 4*(( ²√2)^x) inches

 

 

The last one works on a log with a base 2. (+1 = X2)

Eg. BODY, DC, ROLLS

 

- DC x = 64*(2^x) J (i don't care some would disagree with that , the VF rules are a proof.)

 

- Look at the BODY charts of vehicles.

You will see that for a given mass in kg BODY=8+(functionA(m)/5) and MASS=functionA(m)

where m=mass in kg and functionA(m)=log of m/25 in base ⁵√2.

 

This means that BODY is very close to the equivalent "ROLL-" of MASS (but with a 8+ instead of 9+.)

 

 

I'm not saying it is I'm saying it would work better if it was.

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

I'm not saying it is I'm saying it would work better if it was.

 

As you like it.

 

 

PS: IMHO the real problem comes from the very low granularity of BODY. Multiple scales are also a problem but well, nevermind.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

As you like it.

 

Given the rest of the system, does it really seem like a good idea to have the Body of the planet you are standing on set somewhere in the 80s? I mean, quite apart from the inappropriate hairstyles.

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

I mean, quite apart from the inappropriate hairstyles.

 

 

Given the rest of the system, does it really seem like a good idea to have the Body of the planet you are standing on set somewhere in the 80s?

 

It should be.

 

Everything would be a lot simpler if HERO were 100% log.

Even power modifiers costs would be simpler, they would only be +x or -x instead of multipliers or dividers, etc.....

You would not feel the need to tweak BODY.....

That would be marvelous.....but there is no chance to see that in the near future because this game is too old, there is no chance for such a big change.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

 

 

 

It should be.

 

Everything would be a lot simpler if HERO were 100% log.

Even power modifiers costs would be simpler, they would only be +x or -x instead of multipliers or dividers, etc.....

You would not feel the need to tweak BODY.....

That would be marvelous.....but there is no chance to see that in the near future because this game is too old, there is no chance for such a big change.

 

We can ease them into the idea: I suggested having to get within 20 points of the Body total for the target to take the rolled damage in one hit.

 

Personally I think nukes should only have to do in the 20-30 DC range (albeit over a large area), which would mean, coupled with the above idea, you couldn't blow up the world just by setting off a few nukes: you'd need thousands...millions.

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

Given the rest of the system' date=' does it really seem like a good idea to have the Body of the planet you are standing on set somewhere in the 80s? I mean, quite apart from the inappropriate hairstyles.[/quote']

 

 

just for "fun":

EARTH: between

BODY 85 = 3.7778931862958E+24 kg MASS=385

and

BODY 86 = 7.5557863725917E+24 kg MASS=390

 

TSAR BOMBA = DC 51

 

To disrupt Earth = a bit more than DC 100, around 2^50 Tsar Bombas.

(224,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules)

100 is more than 85...... let's say its because of the "gravitational binding energy" needed to be overcome

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mass musings

 

just for "fun":

EARTH: between

BODY 85 = 3.7778931862958E+24 kg MASS=385

and

BODY 86 = 7.5557863725917E+24 kg MASS=390

 

TSAR BOMBA = DC 51

 

To disrupt Earth = a bit more than DC 100, around 2^50 Tsar Bombas.

(224,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules)

100 is more than 85...... let's say its because of the "gravitational binding energy" needed to be overcome

 

Whilst I agree, with the maths, and I know that Hero does treat Body as exponential (sometimes) it doesn;t do the same with damage: that just adds. In theory this could destroy the world, but clearly shouldn't be able to:

 

WorldsEnd

51 points: (34 active)

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Autofire (160 shots; +3), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (51 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

Whilst I agree, with the maths, and I know that Hero does treat Body as exponential (sometimes) it doesn;t do the same with damage: that just adds. In theory this could destroy the world, but clearly shouldn't be able to:

 

WorldsEnd

51 points: (34 active)

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Autofire (160 shots; +3), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (51 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

IMO that's another story => against a huge target (living or not, complex or simple, etc....), what 1pt BODY means ?

Sometimes 1 pt of excess BODY double destroyed inches. Sometimes its +1" / +1 BODY, sometimes its +1" for each DEF+BODY increment............etc.......

So does such a big target must be seen as a whole or not ? , etc....

If there were less exceptions there would be less problem of this kind.

 

That's very very very tricky. I didn't met the problem until now because i mostly GM Fantasy and Horror Hero but i bet i will when i will GM Star Hero (and it would be an automatic problem in Champions.)

[Crypt]

Re: Mass musings

 

WorldsEnd

51 points: (34 active)

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), MegaScale AoE (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Autofire (160 shots; +3), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (51 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

If you see Earth as a whole, like a character, then this AoE attack would be far from being enough*. When you hit a giant character (several ") do you apply AoE dmg multiple times ?

 

* EDIT: the 160 shots are not enough neither.

160 times DCx is not the same as DC(x*160)

160 X 177 = 28320 = only DC8.

 

It would not be the end of the planet.

But it would be the end of the biosphere. (only because BODY dmg are substract from BODY instead of being a logarithmic comparison....thanks for giving a very good example against the linear uses in HERO...)