slaughterj Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Anybody ever done a massive damage rule for STUN, i.e., where if you take a certain amount, you are ko'd regardless of STUN total? E.g., if you take > 2xCON in STUN from a single attack, you are automatically reduced to 0 STUN? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Keneton Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 It is already easy enough to be knocked out IMHO. Otheres may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Personally, nope, don't like it. If I want an effect like that I'll put a limited EB on the villain (+10d6, only to determine STUNning, does no damage), or a Transform (Major, conscious target to unconscious target)...it's funny when the Tranform wears off and the character gets up and I tell him "you have full Stun and End" he thought someone had healed him and spent days trying to find the person and get them to join the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 I have one rule mod for stun (House rule In other words), it actualy has more to do with Recovery. The table on how fast you heal is the base line (all characters get it as a minimum), however characters with high REC can change the interval to match there REC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted September 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz I have one rule mod for stun (House rule In other words), it actualy has more to do with Recovery. The table on how fast you heal is the base line (all characters get it as a minimum), however characters with high REC can change the interval to match there REC I've liked that idea, since it seems the super-brick should probably get back up before the mentalist, and also because the 10pt step seems fine for heroic level games, higher damaging supers games seem to make the steps seem narrower... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Thank you, can't claim full credit, someone else had the idea on the old white boards (Yes I have been around a long time). I changed it a little it by adding that the book way was how characters with a Rec of 10 or less functioned, but overall it was his idea not mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted September 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz Thank you, can't claim full credit, someone else had the idea on the old white boards (Yes I have been around a long time). I changed it a little it by adding that the book way was how characters with a Rec of 10 or less functioned, but overall it was his idea not mine. Sure, I had seen it some time ago, IIRC. The reason for a massive STUN = KO rule idea was because it seems that 1-hit ko's should be possible, but often are not. The problem is that even stunning someone is difficult, due to high CON scores (esp. in Champions), so even my suggestion of 2xCON would be pretty rare, but not sure what other approach to take (if one should be taken at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz Thank you, can't claim full credit, someone else had the idea on the old white boards (Yes I have been around a long time). I changed it a little it by adding that the book way was how characters with a Rec of 10 or less functioned, but overall it was his idea not mine. I think that was the old rule for Heroic level games. I've used the rule in the past and while it's fairly realistic, it does promote the tendancy to beat on unconsious opponents. Especially in higher powered games. (Try it with Bricks that have recoveries of 30+) Though on occasion if the reasoning seems good, I'll allow a character to buy an increase to the recovery step. 1 char pnt per pnt for step Char A spends 4 points which then means Post Twelved at -15 Once/Minute at -29 GM's Discretion: -43 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 or ye olde "Knockout" variation from Champions (um) III ?? What was that...3 pts per +1 to the multiple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling or ye olde "Knockout" variation from Champions (um) III ?? What was that...3 pts per +1 to the multiple? That was a Maurerism from the Dragon. Issue #100 I think. And yea, that's what it was based on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Well, for what it's worth, since you asked... Nope, no sir, I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Just call me Mr. Horse. I don't see a good reason to have a massive STUN strike knock someone totally out. Why? Because if the character paid for all that STUN, that should not be dismissed. People consider both CON and STUN points when building characters. Of course, I suppose if your concern is STUN inflation, fair enough, you'll certainly put a stop to that. But I think having lots of STUN for some characters and "unrealistically" resisting such damage is good heroic RPGing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted September 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil Well, for what it's worth, since you asked... Nope, no sir, I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Just call me Mr. Horse. I don't see a good reason to have a massive STUN strike knock someone totally out. Why? Because if the character paid for all that STUN, that should not be dismissed. People consider both CON and STUN points when building characters. Of course, I suppose if your concern is STUN inflation, fair enough, you'll certainly put a stop to that. But I think having lots of STUN for some characters and "unrealistically" resisting such damage is good heroic RPGing. Well, that is a feature I like in MnM, but is lacking in Hero. An average brick in Hero (30 PD/ED, 55 STR, 30 CON, 20 BODY, ~55STUN) cannot be ko'd in a single hit by himself or the average EB (not counting maneuvers, etc.). I do like that Hero takes 2-3 hits at least usually to take someone down, but I think a massive success should provide the opportunity for the 1 hit ko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Then your house rules should dictate a STUN limit, or use a one hit wonder rule. If you use the one hit wonder rule, and the circumstaznces happen frequently, veteran players will be annoyed. They will wonder just why they bought those STUN points. Me...after reading the one hit wonder rule...I will buy the CON or other Stat to a level that stops your one-hit wonder effects, or I will just selll back my extra STUN points since they are pretty pointless anyway... And as to comparing to Mutants and MasterMinds...I didn't get one-hit KO'd when I played, but I was forced to spend Hero points each round to merely stay conscious...and was unable to act as the pummelling continued, and the Hero Point expenditures continued... same effect as fighting a brick in champions, except running and dodging in champions works better...or I'm actually unconscious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted September 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling Then your house rules should dictate a STUN limit, or use a one hit wonder rule. If you use the one hit wonder rule, and the circumstaznces happen frequently, veteran players will be annoyed. They will wonder just why they bought those STUN points. Me...after reading the one hit wonder rule...I will buy the CON or other Stat to a level that stops your one-hit wonder effects, or I will just selll back my extra STUN points since they are pretty pointless anyway... And as to comparing to Mutants and MasterMinds...I didn't get one-hit KO'd when I played, but I was forced to spend Hero points each round to merely stay conscious...and was unable to act as the pummelling continued, and the Hero Point expenditures continued... same effect as fighting a brick in champions, except running and dodging in champions works better...or I'm actually unconscious... Obviously MnM provides HP, which counterbalance the frequency of the 1-hit ko, but it does happen when they run out... The HP also help smooth out dice excesses, but that's more frequent in d20 vs. 3d6's bell curve. As for buying CON to exceed the 1-hit ko effect, well, Hero system pretty well promotes that anyway. I find it extremely rare that anyone is ever stunned, so any rule about ko'ing that is based on CON likely would be extraordinarily rare. Lots of factors can be considered in developing such a rule, such as trying to base it on a good die roll (3? but then even weak attacks are just as likely as strong attacks to ko), base it on a good damage roll (can't just be the results on the dice themselves as much as how many dice are rolled, e.g., a 1D6 attack would be easy to max out by rolling vs. a 10D6 attack), etc. It's not easy to formulate such a rule for Hero, which is why I was posting to see if anyone had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 It's a construction problem. Personally, I have sen more Stunning than one-hit KO's....ONE character out of six actually had a CON high enough to be KO'd instead of being Stunned, and that was a second edition Density increase based character. (He had 50 CON total from DI, and 45 STUN pips) In the supers game I just started up, the only character with little to no ability for STUN effects was BUILT that way (50 CON, 75 STUN)...and the Brick psych limit is "Mostly Invulnerable", played by a neophyte to Champions, and played to the hilt...she's having a lot of fun. Back on subject...the other characters have already been forced to rush about and try to save fliers or climbers who have BEEN stunned by attacks...not KO'd, just stunned. But, most of the characters have CON's in a normal range...some have END batteries, and some simply have 0 END powers, and some bought END seperately, cause it was cheap, and they had no plans of being hit (GM laughs maniacally) Limit the construction of the characters to promote Stunning in combat...dictate CON can be no more than X amount, but put no limit on STUN points..you could set most X-Men up with a 15-25 CON, until you get in the Colussus/Rogue range in the old comix. Even they could be built with low CON's quite easily...they have huge defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaughterj Posted September 9, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling Limit the construction of the characters to promote Stunning in combat...dictate CON can be no more than X amount, but put no limit on STUN points..you could set most X-Men up with a 15-25 CON, until you get in the Colussus/Rogue range in the old comix. Even they could be built with low CON's quite easily...they have huge defenses. Even with the ubiquitous 23 CON, a Stun effect is very rare in my experience. E.g., 12D6 EB = 42 Stun on average, but with 25 DEF & 23 CON, 49 Stun is necessary to get the Stun effect, which is more than a "4" on each die rolled for 12D6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 In Superheroic games, I like the idea of making "critical hits" (which may, say, double the Stun result or do extra DCs) more frequent if you want this kind of effect. For example, make any attack which rolls 5 more than necessary to hit a critical (this means a 3-6, or about 5%, between characters who have equal OCV vs. DCV). In Heroic campaigns, killing attacks which hit the head (or roll x5 Stun) are already quite good at knocking people out, thank you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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