Monate

[Utech]

I'm interested in creating a new Power that is something like the opposite of Duplication. Some details are below. I'd appreciate any thoughts (positive or negative) on the concept and pricing.

 

Monate

A character with Monate can merge his form with another. The target must be willing, unconscious, or non-living. Monation takes a Full Phase and is considered an Attack Action. The cost of Monate is figured by adding up several different factors: Target, Form, Power, Characteristics, Skills, and Consciousness

 

Target

 

• A small group of targets. Must be defined at character creation. Cost = ?
  
• A large group of targets. Must be defined at character creation. Cost = ?
  
• A very large group of targets. Must be defined at character creation. Cost = ?
  
• Any living target. Cost = ?
  
• Any non-living target. Cost = ?
  
• Any target. Cost = ?
  

 

Form

 

• No Change: The character absorbs targets into itself and does not appear to change. Cost = ?
  
• Least: The character takes on the least desired of the character's normal form and the target's form. Cost = ?
  
• Average: The character's form and the target's form mix -- usually by averaging the character's and target's size, number of limbs, etc. Cost = ?
  
• Most: The character takes on the most desired of the character's normal form and the target's form. Cost = ?
  
• Additive: The character's form and the target's form add together -- increasing height, weight, number of limbs, etc. Cost = ?
  

 

Power

 

• No Power: The character loses all Powers when Monated. Cost = ?
  
• Least in Common: The character retains any Powers shared between himself and the target at the lowest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Most in Common: The character retains any Powers shared between himself and the target at the highest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Average: The character retains any Powers shared between himself and the target at a level determined by averaging the two. In addition, he gains Powers the target possesses but the character does not at half the level of the target's power. Cost = ?
  
• Additive: The character gains any Powers the the target possesses but the character does not at the level of the target's Power. In addition, any Powers in common are added together. Cost = ?
  

 

Characteristics

 

• Least in Common: The character retains any Characteristics shared between himself and the target at the lowest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Most in Common: The character retains any Characteristics shared between himself and the target at the highest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Average: The character retains any Characteristics shared between himself and the target at a level determined by averaging the two. In addition, he gains Characteristics the target possesses but the character does not at half the level of the target's power. Cost = ?
  
• Additive: The character gains any Characteristics the the target possesses but the character does not at the level of the target's Characteristic. In addition, any Characteristics in common are added together. Cost = ?
  

 

Skills

 

• Least in Common: The character retains any Skills shared between himself and the target at the lowest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Most in Common: The character retains any Skills shared between himself and the target at the highest level between them. Cost = ?
  
• Average: The character retains any Skills shared between himself and the target at a level determined by averaging the two. In addition, he gains
  
• Additive: The character gains any Skills the the target possesses but the character does not at the level of the target's Skill. In addition, any Skills in common are added together. Cost = ?
  

Consciousness

 

• Shared: The character's consciousness and the target's consciousness (if any) share the same body when Monated. They have equal say over what the Monated body will do. Conflicts generally result in the termination of the Monate Power -- the character and target split. Cost = ?
  
• Dominant: When a character and target Monate, they engage in an EGO vs EGO contest. The winner has complete control over the Monated form. (GMs may wish to set a time limit or allow "Breakout" Rolls.) Cost = ?
  

[JmOz]

Re: Monate

 

not sure what you are asking for here. but on a concept level I would sugest the following:

 

A Extra dimensional movement power, and a VPP with multiform as the only power, and certain limitations as outlined above

 

Basicaly you send the target to Dimension of nothingness, while you change into the gestalt shape

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

not sure what you are asking for here.

Thoughts on creating this new Power.

 

I'm not asking how a concept could be built using existing Powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Monate

 

I think 'additive' could get very potent very quickly, but the whole thing seems like an intriguing concept, both as a utility power and an attack power.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Monate

 

The huge number of options makes the power somewhat complex and hard to get a feel for.

 

I know you're not asking how to make this with existing powers. However, given that the target must be willing, etc., I think it could be done with Multiform with a Focus limitation, possibly linked to a Transfer if the Monator absorbs some of the target's powers/abilities.

 

- Klaus

[Sean Waters]

Re: Monate

 

The Monate twins, June and May, have the power to combine into a single more potent form, and have the ‘additive’ form of the Monate power. They can only combine with each other but all of their powers are similar enough that they add together. They each have a 12d6 electrical energy blast, a 20/20 0 END force field and 22” of flight that costs END to activate only.

Once combined (as JuMaMonate), would they have a 24d6EB, 40/40 (0END) force field and 44” of flight that costs END to activate?

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

Once combined (as JuMaMonate)' date=' would they have a 24d6EB, 40/40 (0END) force field and 44” of flight that costs END to activate?[/font']

Sure! Why not? I presume no GM would allow that into their game if 24d6EB, 40/40 (OEND) Force Field and 44" of Flight that costs END only to activate does not blow the lid off the game, of course.

 

If all you're building are the Monate twins, however, I'd recommend that you do so with Duplication.

 

If all you're building is a guy who can Monate with his power armor, I'd recommend that you do so with OIHID or a Focus Limitation or some such.

 

As I picture it, Monate works best for things like...

 

• a robot that can disassemble machines and use the parts to improve itself,
  
• an weak little alien dude who can absorb anyone (starting with Aunt May!) he's managed to knock out with his stun gun,
  
• a Lord of the Jungle mutant who merges with the animals he is sworn to protect,
  
• a druid who can become one with trees,
  
• and so on and so forth.
  

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

The huge number of options makes the power somewhat complex and hard to get a feel for.

I understand. I see Monate as complimentary to such complex Powers as Duplication, Multiform, and Shapeshift

[Sean Waters]

Re: Monate

 

Sure! Why not? I presume no GM would allow that into their game if 24d6EB, 40/40 (OEND) Force Field and 44" of Flight that costs END only to activate does not blow the lid off the game, of course.

 

If all you're building are the Monate twins, however, I'd recommend that you do so with Duplication.

 

If all you're building is a guy who can Monate with his power armor, I'd recommend that you do so with OIHID or a Focus Limitation or some such.

 

As I picture it, Monate works best for things like...

 

* a robot that can disassemble machines and use the parts to improve itself,

* an weak little alien dude who can absorb anyone (starting with Aunt May!) he's managed to knock out with his stun gun,

* a Lord of the Jungle mutant who merges with the animals he is sworn to protect,

* a druid who can become one with trees,

* and so on and so forth.

 

 

 

I am one...

 

One what?

 

No: one with...everything...

 

See Chimera: http://www.2000ad.org/thrillpower/2kad19yz.html

 

http://www.2000ad.org/zenith/superhumans.html

 

 

The trouble with meta-powers like this is that they can be impossible to balance effectively. In the hands of many a player it would be difficult to persuade them that it would be a good idea not to keep 'monating' with new stuff and just becoming more powerful. In fact, interesting idea:

 

EveryMan:

 

Everyman's driving concern is the protection of innocents, and he accomplishes this by monating with crowds of bystanders at super-slug-fests, which makes him incredibly powerful and protects them as they become part of him...

 

Question: what does Monate mean: I could only find 'the plural of Monat', which means month, hence the names of the twins

 

Although probably much messier, I'd rather see this power built to order than cut from whole cloth.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

The trouble with meta-powers like this is that they can be impossible to balance effectively.

I'm not sure what you mean by meta-power. Could you explain?

 

In the hands of many a player it would be difficult to persuade them that it would be a good idea not to keep 'monating' with new stuff and just becoming more powerful.

What I've suggested so far would not allow that. A character can only Monate with one thing at a time. I suppose you could figure out some sort of Adder or Advantage for Monating with more than one thing at a time, but that's not something I had in mind.

 

"Duplicate" from the the Latin duplicatus meaning "to double".

"Mono" from the Greek monos meaning "single, alone"

"-ate" a suffix used to create a verb

"Monate" a word I invented meaning "to make one"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Monate

 

I'm not sure what you mean by meta-power. Could you explain?

 

Sorry - jargonising.

 

I mean a power that does a lot of different things: the concept might be the same in every case but the actual effects are very different. Multiform and VPP are examples of what i consider to be 'metapowers' - they are almost unlimited in potential effect.

 

 

What I've suggested so far would not allow that. A character can only Monate with one thing at a time. I suppose you could figure out some sort of Adder or Advantage for Monating with more than one thing at a time' date=' but that's not something I had in mind.[/quote']

 

I had not appreciated that: it would certainly limit the potential utility, but it then means you head for the biggest bruiser on the other side and take over...hmm....it is almost a sort of possession...

 

"Duplicate" from the the Latin duplicatus meaning "to double".

"Mono" from the Greek monos meaning "single, alone"

"-ate" a suffix used to create a verb

"Monate" a word I invented meaning "to make one"

 

Cunning: shouldn't it be Monoate thought? Or Demiate though, as there are half as many beings afterwards?

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

I had not appreciated that: it would certainly limit the potential utility' date=' but it then means you head for the biggest bruiser on the other side and take over...hmm....it is almost a sort of possession...[/quote']

I'm afraid Monate's no good for that either. It only works on a willing, unconscious, or non-living target.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Monate

 

• a robot that can disassemble machines and use the parts to improve itself,
  
• an weak little alien dude who can absorb anyone (starting with Aunt May!) he's managed to knock out with his stun gun,
  
• a Lord of the Jungle mutant who merges with the animals he is sworn to protect,
  
• a druid who can become one with trees,
  
• and so on and so forth.
  

 

Hmm. Interesting idea, but I see no compelling reason for it yet. All the examples are of things we can pretty easily build with existing Powers or Frameworks IMO.

 

• Robot: VPP, Aid, or characteristics/skills/powers with conditional limitations.
  
• Alien: Telepathy, powers like the robot's, plus possibly Extra-Dimensional Movement or Transform to rid the world of the people he has "absorbed" (until they can be rescued by doing XXX).
  
• Lord of the Jungle: Multiform or Multipower; at the most extreme end a VPP of animal Mutliforms (highly subject to GM approval).
  
• Druid: Shapeshift or Desolidification, plus possibly some sensory powers such as Clairsentience.
  

[Ice9]

Re: Monate

 

The problem I'm seeing is that it looks like it would go straight from nearly-useless to overpowered depending on which option you picked, with nothing in between.

 

Least in Common: This is almost useless. The only benefit seems to be that you could help an unconcious character escape without carrying them. So it's maybe as good as Extra Limbs.

 

Average: Not necessarily useless, but useful only in very niche circumstances. And it involves a heck of a lot of on-the-fly calculation for what is in most situations not even a benefit. Not to mention the question of how you "average" something like Life Support.

 

Most in Common: And here it switches to overpowered, at almost any cost. Not every combination would be, but some combinations (like Brick/Speedster) are going to smash the normal caps into pieces. If it was priced high enough to account for this, the character with it would be crippled whenever they weren't optimally Monated.

 

Additive: And this one is just crazy-strong. Two characters merged this way will be a lot stronger than they were separately, and will probably stomp on anything the rest of the team could handle.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

Hmm. Interesting idea, but I see no compelling reason for it yet. All the examples are of things we can pretty easily build with existing Powers or Frameworks IMO.

 

• I doubt I could give you a compelling reason for Monate. I suppose I can point out that you could easily build all sorts of existing Powers with other existing Powers and Frameworks...
  
• Flight starting with Swimming
  
• Duplication starting with Images
  
• Growth with various things OIHID and a Disad or two
  
• etc.
  

...but that doesn't mean that you should do that.

 

While Monate-like could be built with a other Powers and Frameworks, I don't think it necessarily should.

 

• Robot: VPP, Aid, or characteristics/skills/powers with conditional limitations.
  
• Alien: Telepathy, powers like the robot's, plus possibly Extra-Dimensional Movement or Transform to rid the world of the people he has "absorbed" (until they can be rescued by doing XXX).
  
• Lord of the Jungle: Multiform or Multipower; at the most extreme end a VPP of animal Mutliforms (highly subject to GM approval).
  
• Druid: Shapeshift or Desolidification, plus possibly some sensory powers such as Clairsentience.
  

 

• Robot: You can build just about anything with VPP and a forgiving GM...
  
• Alien: You can build just about anything with Extra-Dimensional Movement or Transform and a forgiving GM...
  
• Lord of the Jungle: You'd have to do a VPP of animal Multiforms -- and have a forgiving GM...
  
• Druid: Shapeshift would make your Druid look like a tree but not merge with a tree. Desolidification would but your Druid inside the tree -- he wouldn't merge with the tree.
  

 

I thank you very much for responding and appreciate your thoughts. While I certainly don't think Monate is essential to the Hero toolkit, I do think it is a clear unified concept that might work better as its own concept rather than with the cludge of VPP/EDM/Transform and forgiving GM.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

The problem I'm seeing is that it looks like it would go straight from nearly-useless to overpowered depending on which option you picked' date=' with nothing in between.[/quote']

 

I appreciate the problem. The reason I included so many options is so that you could price accordingly. Keep in mind that nearly any Power is overpowered if you spend enough points on it.

 

Least in Common: This is almost useless. The only benefit seems to be that you could help an unconcious character escape without carrying them. So it's maybe as good as Extra Limbs.

I think this could be quite useful for tricks like the Druid who becomes one with a tree. In my opinion that shouldn't cost too much. I think it would be a nice flavor spell, though, that would occasionally come in useful.

 

Average: Not necessarily useless' date=' but useful only in very niche circumstances. And it involves a heck of a lot of on-the-fly calculation for what is in most situations not even a benefit. Not to mention the question of how you "average" something like Life Support.[/quote']

The on-the-fly calculations could really be a pain the butt -- I agree. But I don't think that should stop us from offering the option. If GMs (or Players) don't want the trouble, they certainly don't need to pick this one up.

I'd say that dramatic and common sense could help with things like Life Support (you can hold your breath for a long time, but can't breathe water); Invisibility (works more like a "stealth suit"); Desolidification (you can't pass through barriers and you do take some damage -- perhaps Desolidification becomes Damage Reduction); etc.

 

Most in Common: And here it switches to overpowered' date=' at almost any cost. Not every combination would be, but some combinations (like Brick/Speedster) are going to smash the normal caps into pieces. If it was priced high enough to account for this, the character with it would be crippled whenever they [i']weren't[/i] optimally Monated.

Appropriate pricing issues aside, I don't think this is any more troublesome than the potential trouble you could have with the Mental Powers, Adjustment Powers, or a VPP. Characters with these Powers often find themselves in situations in which their main schtick just doesn't work.

 

Additive: And this one is just crazy-strong. Two characters merged this way will be a lot stronger than they were separately' date=' and will probably stomp on anything the rest of the team could handle.[/quote']

That might be just perfect for some campaigns! A Voltron campaign, for example.

Again, you could certainly use an existing Power (Aid, Transfer, Transform, and a number of Powers Usable By Others) to pump up a teammate to levels that make them a lot stronger than other team members. If that's not a problem already, I don't think it would be with Monate. If it is a problem already, I don't think Monate would be worse.

 

I thank you very much for your comments. They certainly are good food for thought.

[Ice9]

Re: Monate

 

I think this could be quite useful for tricks like the Druid who becomes one with a tree. In my opinion that shouldn't cost too much. I think it would be a nice flavor spell, though, that would occasionally come in useful.

Actually hadn't though of that. In that case, I wouldn't call it useless, but it should be a small flat cost, in the neighborhood of 10-20 points.

 

As for the others, I think they should be based on the cost of the strongest thing you can merge with, like Multiform. For Average, I'd put the cost lower than Multiform, maybe 1 per 10 points, because it involves a second character (presumably ally, as you share control) sharing their actions. Most in Common is going to be tricky, and I'm not sure what a fair price would be, but more than 1 per 5 points.

 

Additive I would just drop, because there's really no balanced price you could assign. It adds SPD, so you're essentially going from two people to one double-strength person with all the actions of both - so a large gain for both you and the person you merge with, at no real cost. Even if it cost 90% of your points, you could still merge with a teammate and end up stronger than two characters without it.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

As for the others' date=' I think they should be based on the cost of the strongest thing you can merge with, like Multiform.[/quote']

I considered that, and I think you're right. Points invested in Monate sould in some way determine the highest number of character points you're able to Monate with.

 

Thanks for your suggestions on point costs! I don't think there's any need to drop Additive. It will be very expensive, but does not have to be unbalancing. It may, in fact, be the basis for certain campaigns. Sometimes it's most important to have two different bodies -- sometimes it's most important to have one powerful body.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Monate

 

Hmm. I would personally do a druid merging with a tree is either Shapeshift (maybe Invisibility instead, but either way) if hurting the tree hurts the druid, or Desolidification if it does not. Either way obviously the power has some significant limitations (such as having to be next to a tree and not being able to move). Seems incredibly simple. I don't see why those aren't sufficient or are overcomplicated.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

Hmm. I would personally do a druid merging with a tree is either Shapeshift (maybe Invisibility instead' date=' but either way) if hurting the tree hurts the druid, or Desolidification if it does not. Either way obviously the power has some significant limitations (such as having to be next to a tree and not being able to move). Seems incredibly simple. I don't see why those aren't sufficient or are overcomplicated.[/quote']

Shapeshift, Desolidification, Invisibility . . . none of them actually merges the druid with the tree. Certainly you are welcome to waive that and pretend that the druid does merge with the tree. But a quick reading of any of those Powers makes it clear that he does not.

 

Shapeshift -- the druid seems to be a tree, but is not. He does not merge with any existing tree.

Desolidification -- the druid is inside the tree, but is not actually one with the tree.

Invisibility -- the druid can't be seen, but he's there. He does not merge with a tree.

 

You could toss in Extradimensional Movement to remove an existing tree while you take it's place. But that's also not what the druid is trying to do...

 

Let's reason from effect.

1) The druid wants to be able to become one with trees.

2) The game effect of this is that the druid and tree cease to exist a separate individuals (targets, if you prefer) and become one and the same.

3) What Power (or Power with Advantages and Limitations) allows this? At this point . . . none of them.

 

You can pick up some other Power (such as the ones you've suggested) and then pretend that it merges the druid and a tree into one entity, but there is no Power that actually accomplishes the goal of merging the two.

 

This in and of itself is not reason enough to create a whole new Power. On the other hand, I think Monate would be a good solution to a number of interesting and creative power builds that are currently impossible to accomplish simply and cleanly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Monate

 

Shapeshift' date=' Desolidification, Invisibility . . . none of them actually merges the druid with the tree. Certainly you are welcome to waive that and pretend that the druid [i']does[/i] merge with the tree. But a quick reading of any of those Powers makes it clear that he does not.

 

If you want to limit the SFX in that fashion, fine. But I'd say you are yourself creating the very limitations under which this new Power seems necessary. What is "merging" in game terms?

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

What is "merging" in game terms?

Two things becoming one.

 

This will mean that:

 

• It is impossible to target one without targeting the other.
  
• It is impossible to sense one without sensing the other -- with any sense (or Mind Scan).
  
• Neither thing has disappeared, moved (whether to another dimension or just down the hall), or slipped inside the other.
  
• No amount of Suppress or Dispel will "unmerge" the two things so long as the Suppress or Dispel is used on Desolidification, Invisibility, Shapeshift, Images, Mental Illusions, Mind Control...
  

 

If you're willing to grant all that on sfx, great. I'd say you're being expansive.

[Utech]

Re: Monate

 

So what happens after two things cease to be Monated?

 

I think the simplest thing is to swipe a page from Duplication and say that any damage is split between the two and so on and so forth.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Monate

 

It is impossible to target one without targeting the other.

Okay. So nobody can target the tree without targeting the character. Sounds like a Limitation to me. Nobody can target the character without targeting the tree? Big deal. For other scenarios, maybe some kind of Power or construct that does automatic interposing would work. Actually, you've proposed that the target has to be willing or helpless. If they had to be willing, you can always try to interpose yourself in front of an attack aimed at someone else. So maybe an automatic form of that is all that has to be added to the system.

It is impossible to sense one without sensing the other -- with any sense (or Mind Scan).

Sense a tree? Hmm. Okay. Sure. Sounds like a Limitation or Side Effect at the most, and a wash at the least.

Neither thing has disappeared' date=' moved (whether to another dimension or just down the hall), or slipped inside the other.[/quote']

Err...why not slipped inside the other? Aside from the targeting dealt with above, and the sensing dealt with by the power itself, who cares if one has "slipped inside the other" in terms of game mechanics? What difference does it make?

No amount of Suppress or Dispel will "unmerge" the two things so long as the Suppress or Dispel is used on Desolidification' date=' Invisibility, Shapeshift, Images, Mental Illusions, Mind Control...[/quote']

So it should be a different Power simply so that it can't be Drained, Suppressed, or Dispelled as one of the other existing Powers? Hmm. I don't buy that. I think that's at most pointing out something we could fix with Adjustment Powers, not all the other ones where we might imagine interesting and unusual SFX.

[Basil]

Re: Monate

 

"Duplicate" from the the Latin duplicatus meaning "to double".

"Mono" from the Greek monos meaning "single, alone"

"-ate" a suffix used to create a verb

"Monate" a word I invented meaning "to make one"

 

Why not stick with Latin, and with words that exist. Such as: Unify --- from the Latin uni- meaning "one" and -ficare "to make, to form"

 

Though I'd go with "Merge".