Idea about Dex

[JmOz]

A random idea I had thought it would be an interesting conversation

 

What if we reduced the cost of Dex to 1 point and added an inititive characteristic costing one point (base 10)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

I think DEX should have a cost of 1 with initiative. INT and PRE each also provide skill rolls (like DEX), and each has an ancillary benefit (PER rolls and PRE attacks/defenses, respectively, as DEX provides Initiative), so I think they are quite similar in value (if anything, PRE is worth more than DEX and INT).

 

However, as I look at them, I wonder if the better answer wouldn't be:

 

- increase the price of INT and PRE to 2 each, matching DEX.

 

- price all three skill levels at 4 points (Stat, only for Skill Rolls -1; only one roll per phase affected -1/2)

 

- allow skill levels which enhance all skill rolls based on the stat (Stat, only for skill rolls -1)

 

- price the ancillary benefits as Stat with a -1 limitation (only for combat order so Lightning Reflexes is 1 points to advance combat order by 1; +1 to all PER gets priced at 5 points; I'd like to price +1d6 PRE attack at 5 points and make EGO the sole determinant of resistance to PRE attacks).

 

Regardless, I don't see DEX as having twice the value of INT and PRE under the 6e model, so I think their prices should be equalized.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

If I were inclined to do anything, I'd be inclined to just reduce DEX to 1 Point.

 

I don't see initiative as being so important as to up the value. But then most of the games I play in the style isn't geared towards combat that heavily.

[tesuji]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

Guys, everything is setting dependent.

 

In a psychic wars cmpaign, where MOST characters of note have psionic abilities and mental powers, EGO is likely the most important combat stat and would be REAL VALUE at likely higher than DEX.

 

My main suggestion on the issue of DEX is a broader toolkit approach on evaluating stats per setting.

 

In GA like games where combat is not as crucial, dex and its "who goes first" drops to 1.

 

Heck it could even be so for more routine cmbat games if "going first" was a rarely beneficial thing. I know i have played in games, higher end supers, where "effectively" going after everyone else seemed beneficial. kinda depends on the group and campaign feel towards held actions.

 

In games like say OLD WEST flavor where "who shoots first" is huge, say one with street level at best defenses so one hit might well be a ko, then heck dex is cheap at dex skills and go first.

 

There is nothing universal about those three campaigns - psi wars, supers and old west - as far as the values of ego, dex and going first are concerned. They are each unique.

 

I think the system needs to be more reflective of that fact, supporting more customization, not just looking for a different "one size squuishes all" solution than the one we have now.

 

ymmv

[ghost-angel]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

The actually illustrates my point a bit - by setting DEX as 2/1 and everything else at 1/1 the Rules have already decided that DEX is the most important Characteristic, even if it isn't.

 

Sure, you can change the rules to fit a specific Genre or even Style (heck, the book discusses that).

 

I suppose the issue I really have is the automatic assumption regarding DEX vs The Others. It should have been priced at 1:1 like the rest of them, and let GMs use Toolkitting to adjust to their Genre, Game and Styles.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

IMO even if you are running a combat-intensive game there are enough combat benefits from the other Characteristics that either they should be more expensive, or Dex should be less. For example, Str gives you lifting capacity, throwing distance, damage, Grab and Disarm ability.... Why should Str be any less expensive than Dex? Dex really just gives you the ability to do Dive for Cover and go first in the first Turn of combat (everything after that is a round-robin schedule, and Speed has way more importance). I suppose if you really try to take advantage of that "null zone" between the beginning of the Segment (when you lose any Held Phase) and your Dex it could still give you a slight advantage in the middle of combat (I ignore that rule anyway, and allow someone who hasn't used their Held Phase to substitute it for their normal Phase in the Segment, moving up to whatever Dex they want), but as much as Str? Come on....

 

As for Skills, Agility Skills can help in combat, but so can Analyze, and with a little imagination many of the other Skills can too (Acting, Concealment, Mimicry, etc.). I really don't see why Dex and Agility Skill Levels should be more expensive than everything else.

[tesuji]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

STR and lifting capacity and by extension encumbrance in a fantasy game where armor weighs and carrying capacity is really big - at least as important as dex, especially if melee is frequent so that str boosting weapons, and again especially if str min apply...

 

could easily see it at same as dex.

 

then again in a future scifi not so much.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

I think DEX should have a cost of 1 with initiative. INT and PRE each also provide skill rolls (like DEX), and each has an ancillary benefit (PER rolls and PRE attacks/defenses, respectively, as DEX provides Initiative), so I think they are quite similar in value (if anything, PRE is worth more than DEX and INT).

 

However, as I look at them, I wonder if the better answer wouldn't be:

 

- increase the price of INT and PRE to 2 each, matching DEX.

 

- price all three skill levels at 4 points (Stat, only for Skill Rolls -1; only one roll per phase affected -1/2)

 

- allow skill levels which enhance all skill rolls based on the stat (Stat, only for skill rolls -1)

 

- price the ancillary benefits as Stat with a -1 limitation (only for combat order so Lightning Reflexes is 1 points to advance combat order by 1; +1 to all PER gets priced at 5 points; I'd like to price +1d6 PRE attack at 5 points and make EGO the sole determinant of resistance to PRE attacks).

 

Regardless, I don't see DEX as having twice the value of INT and PRE under the 6e model, so I think their prices should be equalized.

 

IMO there is only a peripheral connection betweeen (INT and PER), social adeptness/Scariness/Bravery) and (the ability to work with steady hands/the ability toperform a backflip/the ability to strike first in combat)

 

You could create new characteristics (Dexterity/Agility/Initiative - Reason/Memory/Perception - and then there is Presence....*sigh*)

 

OR - the way I'd probably go - is simply to assume that abilities that just act as skill bases are ditched, completely, and you buy skill levels, calling them for what they do: well educated, but not too bright? Buy skill levels with memory and general knowledge that do not help that much with 'new' problems.

 

The important thing, to me, is the ability to create characters who fit your concept, and are not forced - any more than is completely necessary - into a template created by the mechanics of the system

[JmOz]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

thought more about this, instead of inititive I was thinking maybe reflex instead, reflex would be the inititive score and some things that are dex rolls right now, things involving speed over accuracy, accuracy over speed would be dex (So most dex skills would still fall here)

[tesuji]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

OR - the way I'd probably go - is simply to assume that abilities that just act as skill bases are ditched, completely, and you buy skill levels, calling them for what they do: well educated, but not too bright? Buy skill levels with memory and general knowledge that do not help that much with 'new' problems.

 

In my curent homebrew, a very simple system, I also ditched after decades the notion of "attributes" or "characteristics" the lumped group of traits that apply to skills.

 

If you want to be dextrous buy up the traits that should be high.

 

So dumping characteristics as skill bases seems logical to me.

 

Want to be good at running buy running, climbing buy climbing, etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

thought more about this' date=' instead of inititive I was thinking maybe reflex instead, reflex would be the inititive score and some things that are dex rolls right now, things involving speed over accuracy, accuracy over speed would be dex (So most dex skills would still fall here)[/quote']

 

Minor point of order, but 'reflex' is almost exactly the wrong word as it implies a reaction, rather than an action. Whilst real combat is, to an extent, the ability to take advantages of openings in your opponent's defence (which could properly be described as reflex), it is also, in large part, planning and daring (which can't).

 

I am currently mulling over the possibility of House Ruling away the ability to 'abort' to actions, or rather, changing the way you do so mechanically. I need to walk the dog and mull it over, but it might well involve basing 'initiative' on your relevant combat value (so someone with a high OCV attacks first, someone with a high DCV is better at reacting).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

In my curent homebrew, a very simple system, I also ditched after decades the notion of "attributes" or "characteristics" the lumped group of traits that apply to skills.

 

If you want to be dextrous buy up the traits that should be high.

 

So dumping characteristics as skill bases seems logical to me.

 

Want to be good at running buy running, climbing buy climbing, etc.

 

That seems like the best approach to me. I'm going to have to think about cost implications, especially with the new skill level cost structure, but it seems the most flexible approach.

[Lairian]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

Currently, combat order is a straight comparison of the two hostile gentlemens' DEX characteristics. Both gentlemen paid the same amount of points for each bit of their DEXes.

 

Really for determining combat order, then, it doesn't matter if DEX is priced at 1, 2, or 20. Fair straight comparison. Really the low price only adds more granularity in exactly how large a gap in "initiative" there is in this gentleman's dual. Really, it doesn't matter how much faster than each other they are, just that one is faster, or neither are.

 

The sticking point of course is that in "beating him to the punch", you pick up skill roll bonuses. Since so much of combat effects (figured characteristics) were decoupled from characteristics proper, this is an annoying place where it was not.

 

I have no problem decoupling this as proposed here in my games, but honestly it's just as easy to make "DEX: only for phase order (-1)" and "DEX: only for skill use (-1)" commonplace.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Idea about Dex

 

Currently, combat order is a straight comparison of the two hostile gentlemens' DEX characteristics. Both gentlemen paid the same amount of points for each bit of their DEXes.

 

Really for determining combat order, then, it doesn't matter if DEX is priced at 1, 2, or 20. Fair straight comparison. Really the low price only adds more granularity in exactly how large a gap in "initiative" there is in this gentleman's dual. Really, it doesn't matter how much faster than each other they are, just that one is faster, or neither are.

 

The sticking point of course is that in "beating him to the punch", you pick up skill roll bonuses. Since so much of combat effects (figured characteristics) were decoupled from characteristics proper, this is an annoying place where it was not.

 

I have no problem decoupling this as proposed here in my games, but honestly it's just as easy to make "DEX: only for phase order (-1)" and "DEX: only for skill use (-1)" commonplace.

 

You can, but it takes more ink

 

There is also 'Lightning Reflexes' for increasing initiative.