WOW! Stun drain in 6e

[Sean Waters]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Even in 5th edition' date=' I always built characters with at least 5 or 10 points of Power Defense. It made a lot more sense than ad hoc rules like halving the effectiveness of Drains against defenses.[/quote']

 

That makes sense mechanically, but I've never really seen any justification for power defence that makes sense in-game.

 

The problem to my mind is that it doesn't work well when you start off assuming that a power works against a 'special' defence, unless the mechanism is completely different from the normal 'damage' mechanism. So 'Flash' works because it is not causing damage (mind you I'd be inclined to have a sliding scale of cost on flash defence, or make additional senses work on an advantage: it is ridiculously expensive to protect all your senses). Most mental powers work because they do not do 'damage' but, well, mental blast - we've discussed the oddities of that before with its freakish cost structure and other weirdness and it's IPE, meaning that a lot of people can not see how strange it really is.

 

Then you have Drain (10 points per point) and, even worse, transform (now 3 to 15 points per point). Transform, for 60 points, gets you between 4 and 20 dice. Mad. 14 points of Power Defence make you safe from Extreme transforms but barely impact on cosmetic ones. Yeuch.

 

I'm really not sure why we halved the cost of stun, to be honest. I mean, it was not a characteristic that affected anything else. The only reason is 'to make it relatively cheap to get the sort of stun levels we are used to'. Is that not missing the point of re-imagining the system?

 

The only reason that Stun/Body/END are 'defensive' powers now is that the cost dropped, not that they are 'defensive' powers any more than any characteristic is a 'defensive' power.

 

That's fine: we need game balance, but it does feel like an itch that needs scratching to re-define these characteristics as 'defensive'. Why not (as everything is changing anyway) get rid of the 'defensive' tag altogether and just list a group of powers/characteristics that adjustment powers have reduced effect on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

The problem to my mind is that it doesn't work well when you start off assuming that a power works against a 'special' defence, unless the mechanism is completely different from the normal 'damage' mechanism. So 'Flash' works because it is not causing damage (mind you I'd be inclined to have a sliding scale of cost on flash defence, or make additional senses work on an advantage: it is ridiculously expensive to protect all your senses). Most mental powers work because they do not do 'damage' but, well, mental blast - we've discussed the oddities of that before with its freakish cost structure and other weirdness and it's IPE, meaning that a lot of people can not see how strange it really is.

 

Then you have Drain (10 points per point) and, even worse, transform (now 3 to 15 points per point). Transform, for 60 points, gets you between 4 and 20 dice. Mad. 14 points of Power Defence make you safe from Extreme transforms but barely impact on cosmetic ones. Yeuch.

 

I agree with both the overpricing of Flash Defense in aggregate and the issue for Power Defense (or any defense that affects attacks with a variety of "per 1d6"costs).

 

The solution to Flash Defense, to me, would be to define it as working against all sense groups by default (just like Energy Defense works against all Energy attacks) and allow limitations to reduce its scope. The limitation for Sight Only would likely be pretty modest, maybe -1/2, given a substantial proportion of Flash attacks affect sight. The limitation for Smell Only would reasonably be higher, as it's less common.

 

I'm really not sure why we halved the cost of stun' date=' to be honest. I mean, it was not a characteristic that affected anything else. The only reason is 'to make it relatively cheap to get the sort of stun levels we are used to'. Is that not missing the point of re-imagining the system?[/quote']

 

To me, a primary reason is to make buying STUN, likely with increased REC, a viable alternative to buying defenses. In a game with defenses capped at, say, 25, how many characters bought 15 defenses and spent the 20 points saved on +20 STUN, or +10 STUN and +5 REC? The extra defenses were far more effective, despite not affecting every attack. Maybe +20 STUN and +10 REC might be more competitive.

 

The only reason that Stun/Body/END are 'defensive' powers now is that the cost dropped, not that they are 'defensive' powers any more than any characteristic is a 'defensive' power.

 

That's fine: we need game balance, but it does feel like an itch that needs scratching to re-define these characteristics as 'defensive'. Why not (as everything is changing anyway) get rid of the 'defensive' tag altogether and just list a group of powers/characteristics that adjustment powers have reduced effect on.

 

That seems as reasonable as the mental permutations needed to call them "defensive powers". This isn't the only area where nomenclature gives us issues, of course. I hate the Takes no STUN defensive rule that applies equally to actual defenses (where tripling their cost when you take no STUN makes sense) and to things like Damage Reduction (where a 50% reduction after defenses is no more or less valuable).

[prestidigitator]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

The straight point cost (ignoring old Figured Characteristics) of most of the Characteristics dropped in 6E. I suppose if you wanted a more consistent rule it could just be halving the effect on "all Characteristics and all Defense Powers". I still wouldn't like it much because I only appreciate the halving where the effect would essentially create mechanical feedback with further use of Attack or Adjustment Powers, but at least it would be more consistent.

 

I do like the ideas on Flash Defense. It's never been worth it IMO. Just buy unusual Senses for such an occasion. Much more effective, and no escalating cost.

[tesuji]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

another approach would be to have adjustment powers require an advantage to affect characteristics.

 

say +1/2 for "affects a characteriostic not a power."

 

thats sort of halfway between the way it works now.

 

now as an aside that might make "characteristics bought as powers" or even "strength gained from growth" more drainable than "real strength" which doesn't seem all that off to me.

 

draining the spidey super strength might be easier until he gets to peter parker normal level.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Another way to justify END as a "defensive power" is that some people have Force Fields, or other defenses that cost END to use. Thus a Drain of END directly impairs their ability to defend themselves (or others).

 

But it would probably have been cleaner to drop the term "Defensive Powers" and use some other term. "Harder to Adjust Powers" which would include all defenses and STUN, BODY, and END (and whatever else may be needed - is DCV or DMCV included?).

[prestidigitator]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

...is DCV or DMCV included?

 

Yes. Both.