WOW! Stun drain in 6e

[tesuji]

hmmm...

 

6e stun drain looks to be exceptionally effective compared to other alternaties.

 

12dc

 

12d6 eb does 42 stun with defenses dropping that to say 15-20 thru

 

AVAD power defense

6d6 does avg 21 stun vs power defense and this is likely all thru or maybe reduced by 5-10 to 15-20 as well

 

so far so good

 

stun drain

6d6 (it is ranged by default now) score 21 effect now as well but since stun cost 2 for 1 thats 42 stun loss if they have no defense and even if we assume 5-10 power defense thats still 22-32 stun drained.

 

the 2-1 cost issue doubles the effectiveness when compared to other attacks vs stun.

 

now sure they recover lost stun at 10 cp per turn but hey thats not going to be too far off the typical recovery rate for regular attacks is it?

 

seems off by comparison.

 

what am i missing?

 

what am i missing that makes 6d6 vvad power defense and 6d6 drain vs stun both weigh in at 12dc 60 ap 6 end each and they be of equibalent effect?

[prestidigitator]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Adjustment Powers' effects are halved vs. defensive Characteristics and Powers, which now includes Stun and Body. 6E1/CC p. 135.

[tesuji]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

ah hah! thats it.

 

thanks

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

This was an issue that SETAC discussed for a bit, especially in respect to the lowered cost of stats like Stun. It was considered reasonable for AVAD and Drain Stun to be similarly effective, and I think it's pretty close.

[The Main Man]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Adjustment Powers' effects are halved vs. defensive Characteristics and Powers' date=' which now includes Stun and Body. 6E1/CC p. 135.[/quote']

 

That's a relief for me.I do find it spiffy that Drain's effect on BODY and STUN has thusly not changed from 5e.

[Balabanto]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

That's actually not the one that's broken. END Drain is howlingly broken. Whereas before, it used to drain about 42 END for 6d6, now it drains an astonishing 52 End for 6d6. (Thats 21x5=105/2=52)

 

This really, to me, signifies a shift from "Power Defense is something you don't need" to "Buy Power Defense or Die." If Joe Character has 60 END, one shot and he's pretty much done.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

But END being cheaper also means you might actually have more as well. Also since they get back 10 cp per turn, all they have to do is survive 1 turn and they get back 25. Plus factoring in people with separate END Reserves, and Reduce END Powers (obviously I’m thinking mostly Superheroic here), Powers with Charges, the ability to burn STUN to run a Power… well, I don’t think it’s a total game killer.

 

Is it a bit strong? Maybe. Was it balanced when it did 42 but broken at 52? It’s a 16% increase, but I don’t think 10 END either way makes that huge of a difference unless it was already on the edge of being overpowered already.

[The Main Man]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Wait, doesn't END cost 1:5?

 

Wouldn't that mean that Drain END 6d6 can sap away an average of 105 END?

 

Or does END also count as "defensive" for Adjustment Purposes?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Well, then you'd get 50 back instead of 25 (I was going off of his numbers). Can you have negative END in 6E?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Or does END also count as "defensive" for Adjustment Purposes?

 

END is considered a Defensive Power (6E1 141).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Well' date=' then you'd get 50 back instead of 25 (I was going off of his numbers). Can you have negative END in 6E?[/quote']

 

"Negative END" just means it takes longer to recover to positive END if it's still out there. It doesn't inflict STUN damage like using STUN instead of END.

[Sean Waters]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

I think we missed a real opportunity with adjustment powers. They have not really changed that much; it is mainly minor adjustments, and associated 'saving provisions' (like Stun suddenly becoming a defensive power...which it isn't) that don't really expand the utility in concept realisation. Still, carry on...

[Vulcan]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

I was afraid of something like this back in the 6E discussion threads. From post 775 of the "Power Frameworks" thread:

 

Of course, if we yank Figured Characteristics, then suddenly the Primary Charcteristics are overpriced (CON being the big one). So we reduce the cost... and now Adjustment Powers are a lot more effective against charcteristics than before... And without EC's, Drains are less effective against characters that used to use EC's a lot. Now Bricks are getting drained a lot, and need to spend more points on Power defense, while the Energy Projectors just laugh and blast the guy some more...

 

It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences. Changes in one thing lead to changes elsewhere, often not to your benefit.

 

Making adjustment powers work at half-strength against characteristics almost fixes. it. But now, Drain END is the greatest superpower of all...

[tesuji]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

I think we missed a real opportunity with adjustment powers. They have not really changed that much; it is mainly minor adjustments' date=' and associated 'saving provisions' (like Stun suddenly becoming a defensive power...which it isn't) that don't really expand the utility in concept realisation. Still, carry on...[/quote']

 

stun is a defensive power. it prevents an attack from causing any real effect. "loss of stun" is just accounting. depleting stun, thats when things get dicey. (partial exception for con stun)

 

there is relly no discernable difference between having a 42 stun attack lose 10 to defense and knock stun from 70 to 38 and having it lose 25 to defense and knock you from 30 stun to 13.

 

but that irrelevent to me since the more interesting question is what specific opportunities do you think were missed?

 

to me, one major step forward is in avad where we can now have adjustment powers defined as nnd-like effects for a much more reasonable cost.m i very frequently in 5e defined my adjustment powers this way and even then thought the costs misplaced. now they line up better.

 

so, in this regards, 6e scratched my "how adjustments should work" quite well.

 

what specifically do you think was missing?

[BNakagawa]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

STUN is totally a defensive power.

 

Everyone in the hero system really has 1 stun pip. It's the important one, the one that determines whether or not you get to act and whether or not you can keep your END.

 

Every stun pip other than the important 1 is just ablative armor for that important stun pip.

[prestidigitator]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Okay. And what about End?

 

I seriously think the only reason for including those things as "defensive powers" in 6E is that they were reduced in price for 6E. That's a horrible reason to decrease the effect on them IMO. If they're worth less, they're worth less. It should be easier to raise them (it is) and easier to reduce them. That's the whole point of their cost. The only reason I was ever okay with the effect on Defensive Powers and Characteristics being halved is that reducing a true defense increases the effect of Adjustments and attacks on other powers and Characteristics. For example, reducing someone's PD can make it very easy for an attack to reduce their Stun; reducing their Power Defense makes further negative Adjustments much more effective. (And similarly for boosting them.)

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Okay. And what about End?

 

I seriously think the only reason for including those things as "defensive powers" in 6E is that they were reduced in price for 6E. That's a horrible reason to decrease the effect on them IMO. If they're worth less, they're worth less. It should be easier to raise them (it is) and easier to reduce them. That's the whole point of their cost. The only reason I was ever okay with the effect on Defensive Powers and Characteristics being halved is that reducing a true defense increases the effect of Adjustments and attacks on other powers and Characteristics. For example, reducing someone's PD can make it very easy for an attack to reduce their Stun; reducing their Power Defense makes further negative Adjustments much more effective. (And similarly for boosting them.)

 

So you'd rather it be broken? Sometimes game mechanics have to be 'stretched' for balance. Happens in any game. Otherwise you might was well forget your End and make sure you have a 0 end power and fight with that until your End comes back. I like this. Otherwise Drain would have to cost different points based off abilities. Why do Killing Damage when you can Drain Body for 2/3 the cost and hit a much more exotic defense.

 

Making END, Body and Stun 'defensive' may seem kinda arbitrary and 'wrong', but I agree with it over the alternatives.

[Lairian]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Minor slight off-topic perhaps, but where is the citation for recovering 10cp per turn on Drain STUN / END instead of 5? I'm missing it somehow...

[Sean Waters]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

stun is a defensive power. it prevents an attack from causing any real effect. "loss of stun" is just accounting. depleting stun, thats when things get dicey. (partial exception for con stun)

 

there is relly no discernable difference between having a 42 stun attack lose 10 to defense and knock stun from 70 to 38 and having it lose 25 to defense and knock you from 30 stun to 13.

 

.........................

 

Stun was never a defense until they changed the cost and, as you pointed out, would be far too effective for a drain unless something get jiggered. You can argue that Stun is a defence but you could aply a similar agrument to STR (or any characteristic): there are serious negative consequences when it is all gone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

.............

 

so, in this regards, 6e scratched my "how adjustments should work" quite well.

 

what specifically do you think was missing?

 

 

I'd have done it completely differently, myself: 1d6 for 5 points of adjustment, normal defences (pd or ed) apply, excising any real need for power defence from the system (you could still use advantages to make it work against mental defence/flash defence/NND).

 

That wasn't done, fair enough, but I would have likes to see some method for building a character who can recover faster than 5 points/time unit without having to create some convoluted healing build. 'Adjustment Recovery'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

Making adjustment powers work at half-strength against characteristics almost fixes. it. But now' date=' Drain END is the greatest superpower of all... [/quote']

 

It must have been pretty hot in 5e as well, then. 6d6 removed 42 END on average, and will now remove 52.5, a 25% increase. Two hits with an END drain and you had no END - same thing in 5e and 6e. In both cases, you use STUN instead of END.

 

How much END does a typical character spend in a phase? Let's assume a 60 AP attack at full END (6 points) plus some movement (2 END), with defenses that cost no END. That's 8 END, or 4d6 STUN = 14 on average.

 

Those 2 END drains replace attacks the opponent would otherwise have made, say a 12d6 normal attack against, say, 25 Defenses, averaging 17 STUN per hit, 34 after two hits. The target will have lost 42 STUN after 3 phases of activity following being reduced to 0 END. That's likely in the range of a full turn before the END drain has brought the target closer to "defeated" than a conventional attack would have. And, of course, the target gets END back (10 points before, 12.5 in 6e) at PS 12, so if that brings him back to the positives, the Drain needs to be repeated - another attack - next turn.

 

That really doesn't seem like "the greatest superpower" of them all to me, even before considering my target may have power defense and/or 0 END abilities.

 

Okay. And what about End?

 

I seriously think the only reason for including those things as "defensive powers" in 6E is that they were reduced in price for 6E. That's a horrible reason to decrease the effect on them IMO. If they're worth less, they're worth less. It should be easier to raise them (it is) and easier to reduce them. That's the whole point of their cost. The only reason I was ever okay with the effect on Defensive Powers and Characteristics being halved is that reducing a true defense increases the effect of Adjustments and attacks on other powers and Characteristics. For example, reducing someone's PD can make it very easy for an attack to reduce their Stun; reducing their Power Defense makes further negative Adjustments much more effective. (And similarly for boosting them.)

 

The same logic seems to imply that halving the effect on other "defensive powers" means defenses are underpriced. And END defends you from taking STUN in the course of physical exertion, so if you want a convoluted rationale, there it is.

 

Reducing the target's attack power makes it very difficult for him to do damage. In a 12DC game, 6d6 Drain removes 4 DC on a low average roll. 8d6 doesn't do much against a target with 25 defense when compared to 12d6.

 

Reducing his INT, PRE or EGO quickly makes many, if not most, most characters ineffective. So does Flashing a character with no compensatory abilities.

 

Minor slight off-topic perhaps' date=' but where is the citation for recovering 10cp per turn on Drain STUN / END instead of 5? I'm missing it somehow... [/quote']

 

Drains work entirely in Character Points. If I Drain 6d6 of STUN, I roll an average of 21, so call it 20 for ease of math. That drains 20 * 2 (STUN costs 1/2 point) /2 (halved for being a defensive power) = 20. It recovers at 5 CP x2/2 = 5 STUN per turn.

 

For END, the calculation is 20 x 5/2 = 50 Drained and 5 x 5/2 = 12.5 recovered per turn. In 5e, it was 20 x 2 = 40 drained and 5 x 2 = 10 recovered.

[tesuji]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

I'd have done it completely differently, myself: 1d6 for 5 points of adjustment, normal defences (pd or ed) apply, excising any real need for power defence from the system (you could still use advantages to make it work against mental defence/flash defence/NND).

 

That wasn't done, fair enough, but I would have likes to see some method for building a character who can recover faster than 5 points/time unit without having to create some convoluted healing build. 'Adjustment Recovery'.

 

the first sounds a lot like avad as a limitation. so you can build that in the system now.

 

as for faster recovery, looking at how complex even something like transfer now is, a triggered aid doesn't seem all that off to me. oh wait, triggered healing.

 

but ok i get the picture.

[Sean Waters]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

the first sounds a lot like avad as a limitation. so you can build that in the system now.

 

as for faster recovery, looking at how complex even something like transfer now is, a triggered aid doesn't seem all that off to me. oh wait, triggered healing.

 

but ok i get the picture.

 

 

You can build it in system but:

 

1. I like the idea of 5 points = 1d6 of anything, anything at all. (So, for instance, Transform is always 5 points for 1d6 BUT if you get BODY in total you can affect something cosmetically, then 2x Body = minor transform, 4xBody = Major transform and 6x Body = Extreme transform. 5 points gets you 1d6 of Blast or Stun drain (no need to make Stun a 'defence'))

 

2. I'd probably have assumed that you recover adjusted powers and characteristics at REC. Then, if you want a slower recovery you buy REC drain. Once REC is down to zero you drop a level on the time chart: you're down to 1 REC and have a further 5 points of REC drained: you now recover once per minute (not once per turn) and you recover (REC-4) points next go.

 

3. That would effectively let you 'damage' characteristics other than STUN and BODY.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

I don't have any problem with BODY and STUN being classified as defensive powers, but END seems pretty dodgy from a philosophical point of view since it's normally something you choose to spend proactively rather than a stat that opponent's attacks chip away at.

[bcaplan]

Re: WOW! Stun drain in 6e

 

This really' date=' to me, signifies a shift from "Power Defense is something you don't need" to "Buy Power Defense or Die." If Joe Character has 60 END, one shot and he's pretty much done.[/quote']Even in 5th edition, I always built characters with at least 5 or 10 points of Power Defense. It made a lot more sense than ad hoc rules like halving the effectiveness of Drains against defenses.