Transform Self

[Vondy]

Let's talk transform: self.

 

I know the rules state transform self is verboten. In general I agree with the principle that if there is an extant power that does the same thing you should use the extant power. At the same time, I keep running across situations where to do what I want with extant powers I have to build extremely wonky builds with scads of modifiers, or entire arrays of powers, where with transform I can accomplish the same thing in a clean, efficient, brief manner.

 

Its not really about the points [though see below]. First, I don't build to a set point total, and second, since arrays of powers tend to fit neatly into frameworks, the cost of the transform is usually in line (within a few points) with the "orthodox method." This goes along with a secondary issue I've long had: certain effects relating to life support are hard to model because of its status of an exception to the rule that hero has no absolutes. Its all or nothing.

 

This is doubly true when you have a more narrative, character driven playstyle. I like system crunch, but there are degrees of utility. And there are some concepts, that while coherent in core concept, require an entire megilla for a character sheet. This goes hand in hand with the issue that such concepts often cost far more than their actual game impact would indicate. Sometimes building something that is simple and sane in prose becomes an overpriced mechanical quagmire. Sometimes I end up scrapping cool concepts as a result.

 

My bottom line is: it seems like an arbitrary rule intended to maintain 1) game balance, and 2) the utility of the other "shapeshifting" powers. That's not bad in of itself. A certain amount of system orthodoxy is healthy for new players, and as I said, the general rule makes sense to me. At the same time, the phrase "a time and a place for everything" comes to mind. There are some places where transform is a simpler, non-abusive way to achieve the end.

 

Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Transform Self

 

99% of the time, Transform isn't required on Self for a couple reasons.

 

1) Transform can be used to add Powers; The Character should just buy the Power in question and changing shape is usually SFX at that point. If the Character regularly adds Powers arbitrarily that may be an indication of another problem, or more properly a Variable Power Pool.

 

2) Transform is often used to change the very nature of something, for beneficial changes this is either, again, the Special Effect of a series of Powers (turning into a tiger) or Shapeshift (disguising yourself as an armchair). And definitely an improper use of Transform:Self.

 

I have run across instances where Transform Self was the best answer to the solution, though I can't recall any at this exact moment. So, like anything in the system, I reserve the right as a GM to change what I need to get the Game I want. (or, if a Player, ask my GM nicely).

 

In general, it's verboten simply because it's redundant.

[Naanomi]

Re: Transform Self

 

Transform Self can be useful to expand another Transform power that could be used on anyone, including yourself... for example: a Poison Cure (which, as discussed in another thread, can be difficult to pin down because of the variety of Poison-SFXed powers potentially out there) could be modeled as Transform: person into non-poisoned person. One could easily take that pill yourself, right? Not if transform-self is disallowed.

 

Transform also serves as an 'anti-transform'... a way to turn people 'back' into their original state of another transform. If I were a sorcerer supreme, I could conceivably magically 'transform' myself back into a human from a ugly troll that I was turned into by another spellcaster... any other answer besides a Transform Self is probably temporary at best (or at least, I have not been able to think of one).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transform Self

 

You know I'm not keen on rules just to preserve game balance BUT Transform Self does scream 'So...I can increase my powers as much as I like or add new ones...and those changes might take a couple of minutes to effect, but last months...all for 15 points you say? Cool.'

 

Of course you can get around the injunction handily enough (buy summon - weak, slavishly loyal 'spell' with 1d6 of extreme transform, or just have two people int he party both with transform) but it is still a balance issue - although probably it should be one for the GM rather than the rule book. As a GM I'd be very wary though...

 

As this is something I'd have to adjudicate on a case by case basis, I'd have to have a case to adjudicate - I don't think that as a general rule it is a great idea to allow 'self only' transform (it displaces too many other parts of the system). Depends what you want it for though.

[Vondy]

Re: Transform Self

 

 

In general, it's verboten simply because it's redundant.

 

My thinking was the reverse of this. We have this oddball dichotomy: use it on others, but not on yourself, even though the desired effect is exactly the same. If we streamlined and let people use it on themselves it would be the other powers (shapeshift et al) that were rendered redundant. In a sense they are more heavily defined-restricted shorthand for what transform does. At the same time: transform is very open ended. I recognize that using it in lieu of those other powers as a matter of course will create problems unless you hammer out how each instantiation of transform self works in detail before play.

[Vulcan]

Re: Transform Self

 

Transform is one of those powers that, regardless of its use, should be closely mointored by the GM. And yes, under certain circumstances (Transform: self to not poisoned, for example) I would certainly allow it. But that does not mean I would allow Transform: self carte blanche either.

[Vondy]

Re: Transform Self

 

...but it is still a balance issue - although probably it should be one for the GM rather than the rule book. As a GM I'd be very wary though...

 

This is my essential premise: it should be a GM call. I agree it could easily be a balance issue, but an experienced HeroMaster should be able to handle it. I think the issue is that transform is an open ended power. To use it in lieu of shapeshift and its ilk you'd need to hammer out, in detail, exactly how it works before play begins. The rules can't impose agreement under those circumstances. At the same time, if you can agree on a fair and balanced application of the power I don't see the problem It might turn the Powers Chapter into "Powers and Transform" Chapter, however. In the rules you'd probably have to have several pages of recommendations/suggestions for how to use it that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transform Self

 

Maybe we are looking at this backwards: instead of broadening the scope of Transform maybe we should ditch it completely and replace it with a set of more specific powers, or possibly existing ones?

 

There's some sort of object creation power in Digital Hero we could use, apparently.

 

We could simply change the rules for Aid so that you CAN add new powers rather than just boosting existing ones (maybe for a 10 point adder).

 

Shapeshift (useable against others) to chance someone else's physical appearance.

 

Mind control to mentally transform someone into your obedient slave

 

Etc

 

Etc

[Vondy]

Re: Transform Self

 

Maybe we are looking at this backwards: instead of broadening the scope of Transform maybe we should ditch it completely and replace it with a set of more specific powers, or possibly existing ones?

 

There's some sort of object creation power in Digital Hero we could use, apparently.

 

We could simply change the rules for Aid so that you CAN add new powers rather than just boosting existing ones (maybe for a 10 point adder).

 

Shapeshift (useable against others) to chance someone else's physical appearance.

 

Mind control to mentally transform someone into your obedient slave

 

Etc

 

Etc

 

I don't propose we remove transform or the other powers it overlaps with.

 

Transform can do certain things that fall in the gaps between the other powers.

 

I just don't want a hard-coded rule rendering "transform self" verboten.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transform Self

 

As I say I'd probably remove all the 'arbitrary' restrictions in Hero (by 'arbitrary' I mean 'there for Game Balance only') - but I'd still be very careful as to how powers are built and used.

 

Transform can be a bit of a blunt instrument anyway - it costs the same - exactly the same - to take someone's eyes away or to turn them to stone. That's why I suggested what I did - but so as to not hijack the thread I've posted a separate thread to discuss that.

[casualplayer]

Re: Transform Self

 

If you used Transform to change shape it would cause oddness when you could transform from being a low BODY mouse in a blink but it would take a minute to Transform from being a high BODY Tyrannosaur. Transform is too vague and wonky and open to misinterpretation and misuse so they hard coded some safeties into the power rather than just relying on player ethics and GM perceptiveness.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Transform Self

 

There's no reason why you have to let Transform add just *any* amount of power to the recipient (self or other). I remember way back before 4th ed, the rule was that the maximum amount of power added was the pips on the effect dice. Want to give someone wings with which to fly at 20" (40 m)? You need to roll 40 points on the dice.

 

This still isn't the best way to grant powers to someone, but you could do it this way. In general, it's probably not a good idea to allow a Transform on self like this. But I don't have any general problem for an "Anti-transform" Transform power on self. Such as a cure poison, remove curse, etc., as has already been mentioned. You could theoretically even do Transform Dead Self to Living Self. Of course, you'd need Persistant and Trigger, and probably other stuff, too, so it would be expensive.

[Vulcan]

Re: Transform Self

 

I don't propose we remove transform or the other powers it overlaps with.

 

Transform can do certain things that fall in the gaps between the other powers.

 

I just don't want a hard-coded rule rendering "transform self" verboten.

 

Well, there is a rule that says "Nothing in the rules is hard-coded"...

[Vulcan]

Re: Transform Self

 

You could theoretically even do Transform Dead Self to Living Self. Of course' date=' you'd need Persistant and Trigger, and probably other stuff, too, so it would be expensive.[/quote']

 

Unless they changed this in 6E, I would stick with Healing and the Resurrection adder. But then, that's just me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Transform Self

 

Unless they changed this in 6E' date=' I would stick with Healing and the Resurrection adder. But then, that's just me.[/quote']

I would too in general. But I don't want to absolutely rule out the Transform version because it might be appropriate in some (admittedly rare) circumstances.