Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.136f)

[Hierax]

I really like the idea of the “Slashing” Ability (in FH-5e.177-178/HSEG-5e-16-17) as well as Killer Shrike’s “Slashing” and “Slicing” Advanced “Weapon Traits” variation on this

 

The idea here is to provide a balanced ability for cutting/slicing/chopping/hacking weapons against non- and light armors that matches that for piercing/penetrating/puncturing weapons vs. all armors that is simulated using the Armor Piercing Advantage.

 

but I'm working on a different version of "Slashing" that is a variation/reversal of the Penetrating-like alternate Armor Piercing Advantage (as depicted in Steve Perrin's 4e Adventurer's Club #20, Steve Long's Digital Hero HeroGlyphs #13, and most recently in H6e-APG.136-137):

 

To give you an idea of other ways of doing this before I present my current draft house rule:

Official Fantasy Hero (5e):

 

• Slashing: +1 DC (base damage) vs. no resistant defenses. e.g., Sword, Axe. Leather Armor (1-3 rPD) provides only ½ DEF.
  
  

 

Killer Shrike (5e):

 

• Slashing: +2 DC vs. Opponents with no Resistant Defense or wearing Leather, Cloth, or Wood Armors; -1 pip of damage per die vs. Plate Armors.
  
  
• Slicing: +3 DC vs. Opponents with no Resistant Defense or wearing Leather, Cloth, or Wood Armors; -2 damage per die vs. Plate Armors.
  
  

 

Hierax Old Method options (5e):

 

• (Slashing; +¼):
  
  
  • +2 BODY vs. Unarmored (0 rPD), +1 BODY vs. Light Armor (1-3 rPD), and +0 BODY vs. Medium (4-6 rPD) and Heavy Armor (7+ rPD); or
    
    
  • +2 BODY vs. Unarmored (0 rPD), +1 BODY vs. Light Armor (1-3 rPD), +0 BODY vs. Medium Armor (4-6 rPD), +0 BODY vs. Heavy Armor (7-9 rPD), and -1 vs. Very Heavy Armor (10+ rPD).; or
    
    
  • +3 DC (1d6K) vs. Unarmored, +2 DC (+½d6) vs. 1rPD, +1 DC (+1 pip) vs. 2rPD; or
    
    
  • +2 DC vs. unarmored, +1 DC vs. Leather Armors, 
+0 DC vs. Chain Armors, and -1 DC vs. Plate Armors).
    
    
  • +2 DC vs. unarmored (0rPD), +1 DC vs. Light Armors (1-3rPD), 
+0 DC vs. Medium Armors (4-6rPD), -1 DC vs. Heavy Armors (7-9rPD), and -2 DC vs. Very Heavy Armors (10+rPD).
    
    
   
  [*](Slashing; +½):
  • +4 BODY vs. Unarmored (0 rPD), +2 BODY vs. Light Armor (1-3 rPD), +1 BODY vs. Medium Armor (4-6 rPD), and +0 BODY vs. Heavy Armor (7+ rPD); or
    
    
  • +4 DC (1d6+1K) vs. Unarmored, +3 DC (+1d6) vs. 1rDEF, +2 DC (+½d6) vs. 2rPD, and +1 DC (1 pip) vs. 3rPD.
    
    
   

Now, here's what I'm proposing and would like feedback on:

 

Hierax New Method (5e+6e):

 

Slashing is an Advantage (5e:+½; 6e:+¼ = x1, +½ = x2, ...) like Armor Piercing but in reverse: it makes a bigger difference against less armor -- use the Alternate (Steve Perrin) Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.136-137) that is like Penetration where you count the Hero Pips on the Dice (1=0, 2-5=1, 6=2) or can use it as a Standard Effect of 1/Die (rather than the random 0-2 per die); this applies to unarmored or lightly armored -- the definition of lightly is important.

 

The Hero Pips rolled on (or Standard Effected from at 1 per die) these dice are how much extra BODY Damage the attack inflicts but only vs. certain amounts of armor (and non-armor) (by armor here I mean resistant protection) less that amount of rPD. There are 2 options about how to do this: either 1) the number of Dice rolled = the rPD this can be used against, 2) or the number of Hero Pips rolled = the rDEF that this extra body can be used against -- What do you think is the best option?

 

- Table: Slashing BODY Damage Bonuses (Standard Effect of 1/die - rPD) 


[After Armor Net Damage vs. Non-Slashing]-

.

Dice . 0rPD . 1rPD . 2rPD . 3rPD . 4rPD . 5rPD . 6rPD . 7rPD . 8rPD

.

1d6 . 0-2
(1) . 0-1
(0) . 0

.

2d6 . 0-4
(2) . 0-3
(1) . 0-2
(0) . 0-1
(0) . 0

.

3d6 . 0-6
(3) . 0-5
(2) . 0-4
(1) . 0-3
(0) . 0-2
(0) . 0-1
(0) . 0

.

4d6 . 0-8
(4) . 0-7
(3) . 0-6
(2) . 0-5
(1) . 0-4
(0) . 0-3
(0) . 0-2
(0) . 0-1
(0) . 0

.

5d6 . 0-10
(5) . 0-9
(4) . 0-8
(3) . 0-7
(2) . 0-6
(1) . 0-5
(0) . 0-4
(0) . 0-3
(0) . 0-2
(0)

-

Note: Half-Dice and +1/-1 dice don't count for these purposes only full Dice

(this is designed for killing dice but you could easily use it for normal dice bonus STUN instead)

.

 

Note: Hardened Advantage on defences cancels out the Slashing Advantage on attacks on a 1 level per 1 level basis, just like regular Hardening and Armor Piercing

(I see no reason why that doesn't work and the Alternate method suggests doing hardening differently)

except for 0rPD there is no hardening possible, but unlike Armor Piercing, the Slashing only applies to a limited range of defences.

E.G., a Great Axe (at STR Min) rolls 2d6+1 so it uses 2d6 to determine the amount of extra damage vs. non- or "lightly" armored targets: 0-4
(2) vs 0rPD . 0-3
(1) vs. 1rPDF . 0-2
(0) vs. 2rPD. 0-1
(0) vs 3rPD. 0 vs. 4+rPD, so it could do up to +4/+3/+2/+1 but averaging +2/+1/+0 bonus BODY damage.

 

Like the Alternate Armor Piercing this advantage could be taken twice and the Hero Pips rolled would be doubled (but one might want to apply the rPD an extra time to keep this under control).

 

Again, the idea here is to provide a balanced ability for cutting/slicing/chopping/hacking weapons against non- and light armors that matches that for piercing/penetrating/puncturing weapons vs. all armors that is simulated using the Armor Piercing Advantage.

 

Does this make sense and seem like a useful and balanced ability to you? How would you take the idea of Slashing and adapt the alternate Armor Piercing model to it? Can you think of anyway to that I can refine and improve upon the implementation of this concept?

 

Thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Well....there's always Reduced Penetration. You roll more dice and split it in half. No Armor = ouch, but each point of rPD the target has is basically effectively doubled.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Armor piercing versus low defenses only

 

the used to be a power call piercing

where one would subtract for the target's defense directly

of 3 adder points an attack could gain +1 point of piercing

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

In a way, although it might not be obvious at first, this kind of Slashing already has a lesser version of Reduced Penetration -like effect worked into it as you count the armor twice -- once for this extra BODY and once for the regular BODY of the rest of the attack.

 

e.g. with a 2d6 getting really lucky and rolling 2 x 6's you get +4 BODY vs. 0rPD but only get +3 BODY vs. 1rPD, +2 vs. 2rPD, +1 vs. 3rPD, +0 vs. 4rPD, otherwise it would be +4 BODY vs. all. Kinda like a Partially Limited power in this way -- +Damage, only vs. no or low rPD, and only partially Reduced Penetration -- if even this partial damage was fully reduced Penetration I'd have to count it it as +4 vs. none, +2 vs. 1rPD, and +0 vs. 2rPD, and that was too steep of a drop off for what I'm looking at.

 

Also I didn't want to make the whole attack to be Reduced Penetration otherwise it get's too steep on the initial regular killing dice of damage and make edged weapons pretty much useless instead of just less useful against medium + armors, and I didn't want to go that far.

 

So, this Slashing is a compromise between full on extra damage only vs. certain #rPD and Reduced Penetration on them.

 

Maybe I should add a clarifying note that the rPD is applied once vs. the regular attack damage dice and once vs. the extra BODY from the Slashing dice?

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Yes, Piercing still exists -- 5e in Dark Champions but very useful for Fantasy too (and I'm already using it in some other ways for Weapons) and it's in H6e-APG also. But Piercing applies against all #rPD just like Armor Piercing does and it doesn't allow for the extra damage vs. 0rPD like the Slashing in Fantasy Hero and Killer Shrike's weapon traits. The effect I need does the most damage vs. 0rPD and a bit less of more vs. the low #rPD and no extra vs. higher #rPDs.

 

I just need a shorthand way to write it down that uses a mechanic that is similar to how Puncturing Weapons use Armor Piercing (where I'm using the alternate version in APG/AC/DH) and Bashing Weapons use +STUNx, since they both use a +1/4 or +1/2 Advantage, using an Advantage for Slashing seems like the most consistent way to represent it in the weapon write-ups, and since the way that Penetrating and Alternate Armor Piercing will be already in use, using this method of Slashing should seem consistent in application.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

shotguns used to do 3 hits of 1d6 kill

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Do you mean 3x 1d6 hits instead of a single 3d6 hit like Reduced Penetration but on a tripling rather than doubling level of the rPD?

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

OK, to make this simpler:

 

All weapons get an Advantage:

 

• Bashing = Increased STUNx
  

 

• Puncturing = Armor Piercing
  

 

• Slashing = ?
  

Hero System has rules for what pointed and blunt weapons do, but the 3rd what would a comparable Advantage be at the at +¼ or +½ level for edged cutting weapons?

 

Are you guys not differentiating weapons, or using the straight up non-Advantage Fantasy Hero Slashing method, or just doing it in some other way?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

there doesn't seem to be a lot of variance in weapons beyond damage and strength mins

 

 

Do you mean 3x 1d6 hits instead of a single 3d6 hit like Reduced Penetration but on a tripling rather than doubling level of the rPD?

 

yes, though stun though is added for purposes of stunning and the body was added together for purposes of knockback

 

if I recall the shot gun correctly

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

there doesn't seem to be a lot of variance in weapons beyond damage and strength mins

 

That's what I'm working on changing, each weapon type will be different and will have different effects vs. different armors, etc. This Slashing thing is just part of a larger overhaul/update for 6e.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

I don't understand why normal attacks haven't been thrown into the mix. Everything is based on KA

why can't a mace be a 4d6 AP attack that can be added to with strength up to doubling after a strength min?

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Personally, I like Killing Damage for Weapons more (for a variety of reasons) and am currently only using Normal Damage for Club and Staff weapons. But if a player wanted a Mace built as a Normal Attack I wouldn't be opposed to the idea -- I have Maces as Killing Damage with Advantages.

 

But that's a topic for a thread on Blunt Weapons, here I'm interested in Cutting/Chopping/Hacking/Hewing/Slicing/etc.

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

What about draw cutting vs. chopping/hacking cutting? A shallow but long draw cut slice would have a different effect against an armoured than an unarmored target than a chop/hack cut would -- Reduced Penetration there would be appropriate for a draw cut. Perhaps extra damage as a partially limited power could work for that.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

The Hero Pips rolled on (or Standard Effected from at 1 per die) these dice are how much extra BODY Damage the attack inflicts but only vs. certain amounts of armor (and non-armor) (by armor here I mean resistant protection) less that amount of rPD. There are 2 options about how to do this: either 1) the number of Dice rolled = the rPD this can be used against, 2) or the number of Hero Pips rolled = the rDEF that this extra body can be used against -- What do you think is the best option?

 

Use the base 1 per 1d6 KA

otherwise, the body is counted twice

A 4 resistant defense should not take 4 extra-body whenever it is breached

[ayinde]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

ive always seen it this way

bashing = hand attack/blast bmg phy

slashing = killing attack

pierce = killing attack + armor piercing

if the weapon was week against armor for some reason tack on reduced pen

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

armor piercing can be like cracking a nut

which is why a hammer might be a good candidate

[ayinde]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

when i think pierce i think breach of small portion of def but for the most part def is still there

when i think hammer i think penetrating attack the armor may still be intacted but was is behind the armor was damaged anyway but i could be overthinking it

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

ive always seen it this way

bashing = hand attack/blast bmg phy

slashing = killing attack

pierce = killing attack + armor piercing

if the weapon was week against armor for some reason tack on reduced pen

 

what is bmg phy?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

when i think pierce i think breach of small portion of def but for the most part def is still there

when i think hammer i think penetrating attack the armor may still be intacted but was is behind the armor was damaged anyway but i could be overthinking it

 

I am not a big fan on penetrating

Automatic damage through leaves me uneasy and can be abused.

Ofcorse, there is always hardened defenses.

But a character can by a 1/2d6 HKA (1d6+1 with strength) triple penetrating for 25 points and be able to break virtually anything in a couple minutes.

[Nevenall]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

OK, to make this simpler:

 

All weapons get an Advantage:

 

• Bashing = Increased STUNx
  

 

• Puncturing = Armor Piercing
  

 

• Slashing = ?
  

Hero System has rules for what pointed and blunt weapons do, but the 3rd what would a comparable Advantage be at the at +¼ or +½ level for edged cutting weapons?

 

Are you guys not differentiating weapons, or using the straight up non-Advantage Fantasy Hero Slashing method, or just doing it in some other way?

 

I don't think there would be a advantage for slashing. Maybe a +1 OCV.

[Nevenall]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

What if you had to select Bashing, Puncturing, or Slashing when you buy attacks and defenses?

Then you can make a multipower for weapons that can deal more then one type of damage, and armor can buy multiple appropriate types of defense.

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

What if you had to select Bashing, Puncturing, or Slashing when you buy attacks and defenses?

Then you can make a multipower for weapons that can deal more then one type of damage, and armor can buy multiple appropriate types of defense.

 

Yes, good idea, I quite agree; those are already some other parts of the system -- each type of protection is a -2 Limitation (= 1/3 cost) -- that's the Armor side of the equation -- e.g., Heavy Chainmail is 8rPD vs. Cutting/Chopping/Edged attacks, 6 rPD vs. Puncturing/Sharp/Pointed Attacks, and 4rPD vs Blunt/Bludgeoning/Smashing attacks.

 

This thread is looking at 1/3 of the weapon side of the equation -- the Slashing ability of edged weapons: Some particular weapons of the general types have different advantages of varying levels:

 

• no Advantage,
  
• +1/4 Advantage or +1 DC or +1 OCV,
  
• +1/2 Advantage.
  

The Weapons are balanced in terms of Active Points but get different specific abilities. Blunt Weapons get +0, +1, or +2 Increased STUNx; Puncturing Weapons get +0, +1/4, or +1/2 Armor Piercing; Cutting Weapons get +0, +1/4, or +1/2 "Slashing". (Penetrating is used for Magic). Yes, many weapons do get multi-powers for different modes of attack.

 

That's the larger context of where I'm going but exactly what the game effects of this "Slashing Advantage" are what I'm looking for feedback on here.

[Nevenall]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Yes' date=' good idea, I quite agree; those are already some other parts of the system -- each type of protection is a -2 Limitation (= 1/3 cost) -- that's the Armor side of the equation -- e.g., Heavy Chainmail is 8rPD vs. Cutting/Chopping/Edged attacks, 6 rPD vs. Puncturing/Sharp/Pointed Attacks, and 4rPD vs Blunt/Bludgeoning/Smashing attacks.

 

This thread is looking at 1/3 of the weapon side of the equation -- the Slashing ability of edged weapons: Some particular weapons of the general types have different advantages of varying levels:

 

• no Advantage,
  
• +1/4 Advantage or +1 DC or +1 OCV,
  
• +1/2 Advantage.
  

The Weapons are balanced in terms of Active Points but get different specific abilities. Blunt Weapons get +0, +1, or +2 Increased STUNx; Puncturing Weapons get +0, +1/4, or +1/2 Armor Piercing; Cutting Weapons get +0, +1/4, or +1/2 "Slashing". (Penetrating is used for Magic). Yes, many weapons do get multi-powers for different modes of attack.

 

That's the larger context of where I'm going but exactly what the game effects of this "Slashing Advantage" are what I'm looking for feedback on here.

 

 

Huh...What? Hey! Sorry, the monkey I hire to do my posts doesn't always read carefully before posting. Bad monkey.

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

hey, no problem, better to have a good idea twice than no idea.

[Hierax]

Re: Slashing Advantage for Weapons - Variation on Alternate Armor Piercing (H6e-APG.1

 

Take a razor vs. a curved dagger vs. a straight dagger vs. a hand axe or a scimitar vs. a longsword vs. a battleaxe -- all "cut" but have different wound characteristics vs. flesh and vs. various armor types.

 

How do you represent this sort of thing?