Gary Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X That is why I bristled. I had a hard time understanding why someone would assume there is no credible reason, ever, to use a power that is designed in the book to be used that way. It was really surprising. I think some gamers get a little too caught up on how something could be abused and, frankly, it smacks of mistrust of players. I don't like to be in an adversarial position with my GM. If they don't trust me to use Find Weakness correctly from the get-go, I have a problem with that. If you noticed, that power has a !. The book explicitly states that a GM should look carefully at ! powers and restrict any that he doesn't feel comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I have used find weakness as a player and I didn't feel I was abusive. I have had players in game with find weakness when I gm and there was no harm to their use of find weakness. Find Weakness, is not in and of itself, an indication of an abusive player. Limiting to 2 rolls is a moot point anyway concerning the diminishing returns. On a character with 25 pd he has 13 with the first roll and 6 with the second roll. A third roll knocks it down to 3. The third roll nets the find weakness 3 more stun! They would probably find better things to do with their 1/2 move, like find weakness on the next victim, rather than go a third time. I think you are also discounting the real limits of find weakness being a 1/2 action. It takes away the luxury of moving from most characters and moving is gooooood. If a character wants to be maneuverable they have to delay an attack to the next phase and that is a significant trade-off. And just wait till find weakness guy is outnumbered. It's difficult for find weakness to come in that handy when ganged up on buy a gaggle of lower powered supers. The diminishing returns applies to stun, but not body. If someone with FW is trying to kill an enemy, then each successive FW is very important. The 1/2 phase action isn't too restrictive if you have a range attack. And it's totally unimportant if you're lucky enough to ambush your enemy. And you can do 2 FW attempts per phase. I don't think FW is overpowered, but it definitely should be factored in when determining damage caps or when estimating average damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gary As they say, some conceptions are more equal than others. One player may have a conception where he has 100 pt powers and be good enough to design that conception. Another player may have a conception where 50 pt powers are good enough or be a poor enough character designer where he can't do better. If that's the case, then one of them will have to modify their conceptions. I assume you mean by "If that's the case" you are referring to "...or be a poor enough character designer where he can't do better" That has nothing to do with points caps at all of course. In fact your first point about 100 points and 50 points (where the 50 is "good enough") is a good example of where points caps are unnecessary and possibly even misguiding. Don't get me wrong - I have no problem whatsoever with GMs who choose to use them (so long as not slavishly or ignorantly). Personal choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gary The diminishing returns applies to stun, but not body. If someone with FW is trying to kill an enemy, then each successive FW is very important. The 1/2 phase action isn't too restrictive if you have a range attack. And it's totally unimportant if you're lucky enough to ambush your enemy. And you can do 2 FW attempts per phase. I don't think FW is overpowered, but it definitely should be factored in when determining damage caps or when estimating average damage. I figured since this was the Champions board that we wouldn't be that worried about doing body, at least most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I figured since this was the Champions board that we wouldn't be that worried about doing body, at least most of the time. I dunno, since there's not a separate "Dark Champions" board, I'd assume it'd be a consideration. That's why I like to figure out just what subgenre people are playing much of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil I dunno, since there's not a separate "Dark Champions" board, I'd assume it'd be a consideration. That's why I like to figure out just what subgenre people are playing much of the time. Maybe there should be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Maybe there should be? This or something like this came up somewhere not terribly long ago. I think Steve or somebody hinted there might be a forum for street-level modern games when they get the appropriate material out. If I get a chance I'll try to dig up that thread. As it is I really need to get back to work...lazy Friday afternoon kicking in on me for no good reason - well some good reason - I just completed a big amount of work that fits into an even larger project and the rest now just seems insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil I assume you mean by "If that's the case" you are referring to "...or be a poor enough character designer where he can't do better" That has nothing to do with points caps at all of course. In fact your first point about 100 points and 50 points (where the 50 is "good enough") is a good example of where points caps are unnecessary and possibly even misguiding. Don't get me wrong - I have no problem whatsoever with GMs who choose to use them (so long as not slavishly or ignorantly). Personal choice. My personal experience is that if someone in the group is running around with 100 pt attacks and other people are running around with 50 pt attacks, problems arise. One of the two characters will inevitably have to rebuild their characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I figured since this was the Champions board that we wouldn't be that worried about doing body, at least most of the time. That's assuming everybody on this board plays a 4 color campaign. There are many people who play in grittier campaigns. Also, there are plenty of automatons and demons in even a 4 color campaign, where you actually want to kill the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gary My personal experience is that if someone in the group is running around with 100 pt attacks and other people are running around with 50 pt attacks, problems arise. One of the two characters will inevitably have to rebuild their characters. Well, typically that 100 point attack person will have plenty of weaknesses balancing it out. If they want to play that way and the group have fun, it's cool with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zan the Gamer Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Well, I talked with my players last night (only have 3 right now... definitely need some more) and I told them that I was removing all blanket-bans and that I would review each character individually instead of saying no before hand. They were all happy with the change, so I think it's going to work out better this way. I did warn them of what I am more inclined to accept and not accept, and told them I still wanted the same "World Setting." The only cap I have left in is the points the characters are based on, still 250 with 100 Disads, though I told them if it's a point or two over, that's fine. I wanted them to play to concept first, and not feel like they had to have 10 DCs of attack to be effective at all. I told them I would base the villains off the end result of the team's abilities. Which brought me to an interesting thought. It seems that the Pre-Designed characters in the various Champions books all have a LOT of skills that don't neccessarily play into combat, more towards character conception. Does anyone here had experience with a game that didn't count non-combat skills into the total cost of the character? I was tempted to try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil Well, typically that 100 point attack person will have plenty of weaknesses balancing it out. If they want to play that way and the group have fun, it's cool with me. Not if they build the character right. My experience is that the people with 50-60 pt powers don't have the same fun as the guy with 100 pt powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Not if they build the character right. My experience is that the people with 50-60 pt powers don't have the same fun as the guy with 100 pt powers. OIC, you play with roll-players as opposed to role-players. Now your concerns re balancing the game make sense. That's right, it's cheap shot Friday! I seriously totally jest, every game is different, every group is more different than every game. Here's where we simply have different experiences, but probably also accounted in large part by different GMing styles as well as groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Maybe there should be? I started a thread on this a while back - I guess that's why I remember the discussion in some part! It's at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3550 Anyway, though, here's the gospel from Steve at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=55609 "Right now, the only other genre-related board I'd expect to add would be a Dark Champions board, when that line gets started. I don't see the other genres as attracting enough attention to get beyond an "Other Genres" general category. If there were good reason to do so, I'd tell Ben to set up a message board for another genre, but I have yet to see any evidence that would be a good idea. No need to clutter up the boards with a lot of micro-categorization. __________________ Steve Long HERO System Line Developer" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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