expendable foci vs. charges

[secretID]

5e - not sure if this changed.

 

Building a FH mage - and therefore dealing with expendable foci - for the first time. The lim seems very undervalued. For that same extra -1/4, I could buy 2 clips of 12 charges, recoverable under limited circumstances.

 

Am I missing something.

[ghost-angel]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

I suppose it depends on how many of the foci the GM lets you have hanging around.

 

There's no number limit placed on Expendable, if the item is easy enough to maintain, or you've accumulated enough, you can keep casting as long as materials last.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

Expendable Foci used to simulate spell components are a way of doing a kind of 'charges' whose availability are firmly under the control of the GM (some times the character will have a surplus, sometimes some components will be in short supply, ie;the key piece of that pesky Clairvoyance spell!). Plus, making it a different Limitation allows you to combine both where appropriate to model certain spells (like a multiple missile "Magic Missile" spell).

[secretID]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

I suppose it depends on how many of the foci the GM lets you have hanging around.

 

There's no number limit placed on Expendable, if the item is easy enough to maintain, or you've accumulated enough, you can keep casting as long as materials last.

I thought of that, but that's why I gave the example of 2x12. I doubt he'd allow me that many, and even so, I might have 8 spells, so hundreds of foci, and the component might be a valuable item. More likely, I'd have about 6 uses for each. In charges, that would be -3/4, and they would automatically recover, and I wouldn't have to spend END. (Yeesh - the more I think about it, the crazier it seems.)

 

Expendable Foci used to simulate spell components are a way of doing a kind of 'charges' whose availability are firmly under the control of the GM (some times the character will have a surplus' date=' sometimes some components will be in short supply, ie;the key piece of that pesky Clairvoyance spell!). Plus, making it a different Limitation allows you to combine both where appropriate to model certain spells (like a multiple missile "Magic Missile" spell).[/quote']

Those make sense, but they don't explain the pricing. Given the guidelines in the book for what constitutes "difficult," etc., I would think expendable would be 3 to 5 times the value given, at least as compared to charges.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

You have answered your own question.

 

Charges, by default, do not recover. That is the "recoverable" option. At least, that is my take on it. Many people kind of gloss over this in the case of guns, as in a campaign with guns bullets are fairly easy to come by.

 

"Expendable Focus" could be something as simple as picking up a rock and throwing it. Still costs END, etc. It just means you have to get another focus or have more than one to use the power more than once. The other options on the focus change the value; if it is expensive, difficult to replace, etc.

 

Again, this may not be the official ruling on it, but it is how I have always understood it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

 

Charges, by default, do not recover. That is the "recoverable" option.

 

Not exactly. Charges without the Recoverable option still recover between adventures (get a new clip of bullets from home base).

Recoverable means they are recoverable much sooner (like throwing knives or Captain America's Shield, a multipower slot for 'throwing' it might be built with 1 recoverable charge).

[secretID]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

Charges without the Recoverable option still recover between adventures (get a new clip of bullets from home base).

Right - that's what I was referring to, Kraven. With either a charge or an expendable focus, you lose the power in the short term, but with the charge you get it back automatically later, while with the expendable focus you have to go through some trouble and expense to get another.

[Ice9]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

Personally, with a limitation value of only -1/4, I'd be inclined to say that Expendable focuses are only effectively limited when you're away from all normal supplies for an extended period. So when in a town, or on the road between them, you have as many as you need - but get stuck in the desert, or crossing some huge forest, and you'll likely run out. I don't know if that lines up with the examples in the book, however.

[secretID]

Re: expendable foci vs. charges

 

Personally' date=' with a limitation value of only -1/4, I'd be inclined to say that Expendable focuses are only effectively limited when you're away from all normal supplies for an extended period. So when in a town, or on the road between them, you have as many as you need - but get stuck in the desert, or crossing some huge forest, and you'll likely run out. I don't know if that lines up with the examples in the book, however.[/quote']

Not well. IIRC, the examples in the 5e book are pretty nasty. The FH book is more reasonable - it talks about the -1/4 level as including particular leaves, and such, though that's still not ubiquitous. The actual examples in the grimoire are closer to the 5e book - carved ivory figurines, the blood of a particular creature, and similar.

 

I think I would just do away with the whole lim - just do OAF and charges/recoverable under limited circumstances. This is just a shorthand for that combination, with very unbalanced pricing.