Turning into a pack of wolves

[Alcibiades]

(If there is a relevant rules difference here, I'm using 5th ed., not 6th.)

 

I am perplexified on two related issues.

 

First, I'm building a character who has Multiform with four forms, all of which are animals from the Bestiary with some slight stat upgrades and the Red in Tooth and Claw martial art.

 

I want one of them two actually be a _pack_ of creatures, a number of wolves. Which are pretty much normal wolves with somewhat higher PD and ED and martial arts, and a Fighting Array.

 

It seems that the best solution would be to take this as a Multiform and give the alternate form Duplication (Duplicates Cannot Recombine). However, I think a) this may be abusive (an alternate form with a form) and turning off the Multiform itself would seem to consitutute Recombination (since . But I can't think of another way. Do you guys think that this build would be alright?

 

Second, this is the forst time I've built a character with Duplication and I'm confused by something. The book says that the cost is based on the cost of the original character (which I presume is the character that is buying the power, not the duplicates). However, the examples,like hydra in the Bestiary, seem to be based on the cost _of the duplicate_. Moreover, said hydra has Duplicates that are totally different from it, but has not bought Altered Duplicates.

 

What do you guys think?

[brionl]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Using a multiform that has duplication (or a duplicate that has multiform) is a well known tactic, but it is tricky to price "correctly". I say it that way, because "correct" is whatever you and/or the GM agree that it should cost.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't go with Cannot Recombine. At most I'd go for a smaller limitation like "Only combines when switching multiform". Maybe -1/4, maybe even just 0.

 

As for the Hydra, it's a bit of a kludge. It isn't duplicating the whole Hydra, so it only bases to cost on the "Head" part, not the whole creature, and of course they aren't different.

[Alcibiades]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Thank you.

 

It's not just the hydra though. In the 5E rulebook, in the Elemental Man example on p. 102, the price is worked out based on the 250-point duplicates, not the 350-point base character.

 

EDIT: That's also the case with Deuce in Vibora Bay. The Duplication cost is based on the cost of the Duplicate, not the base character. When the book says, "original character," do they then mean not the base character, but the first Duplicate of a series?

[griffinman01]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

"Original character" typically means whatever is using the duplication and thus being duplicated. So, in the case of your wolves, if you're doing a hypothetical situation where a 250 point guy has multiform (to change into a 150 wolf) and then have that 150 point wolf use duplicate, then you pay the cost for 150 points since the wolf is what is actually using the power and is being copied. If you did the reverse (where the 250 point man used duplication to split into 4 parts and then each part would multiform into a 150 point wolf) then you would have to pay for the duplication for 250 points.

[Alcibiades]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

What I have is a 350-point character with 4 alternate forms, each based on somewhere between 200 and 300 points. One of these is a 212-point wolf, which I want to make into 6 wolves via Duplication, all of which are identical (except for only the first one having the Duplication). So the original wolf would buy Duplication based on a 212-point character, correct? Making the Duplication cost 57 points (212/5 = 42 + 15 for x8 duplicates) and the form cost 212 + 57 = 269 points?

 

I'm confused because the text of the power specifically states that the cost is based on the original character including the cost of Duplication, but none of the published characters seemt to do this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

I've made a character exactly like that - one of their forms was an Unkindness Of Ravens.

 

You've figured it out mostly correctly, as you have to work a bit backwards and forwards around the whole issue a little bit.

 

First, you know that the Wolf is 212 Points, but as you cost Duplication it's actually the cost of the Full Character, not What's Left After Duplication Is Paid For. That's the back and forward with the math to get you desired 'target' number. What's easier is to decide how big your Multiform is to get an alternate forms "Base Points" - working with 300 Points, your Duplication looks like:

 

300/5 = 60, +15 (6 more wolves, note this is a total of 7 wolves - the multiplier is Number Of Duplicates, not Total Characters) = 75 Points. You now have a pack of 300 Point Wolves, but each has 225 Points to spend on being a Wolf (after paying for Duplication). So you have an extra 13 points per wolf.

 

Also, Hero Rounding Rules do not apply to 'partial points' in things like Duplication - 212/5 = 43 Points for purposes of things like Duplication.

 

If you play around with the math, you'll find that a 285 Point Alternate Form can buy Duplication for 72 Points (285 Point Duplicates + 6 Duplicates), and have 213 Character Points to use on each Wolf. Cannot Recombine is a -0 Limitation, and should be applied.

[griffinman01]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

To quote the 5th ed rulebook:

 

Duplicates do not have the Power Duplication

themselves, nor any ability to create other Dupli-

cates, unless they pay for it separately. However,

unless the GM permits otherwise, for ease of use all

Duplicates must “pay for” the cost of the base char-

acter’s Duplication ability. Otherwise, the Dupli-

cates would end up with more points to spend on

other abilities than the base character himself has.

 

So, based on your example, the wolves may only cost 212 points, but you still have to factor in the duplication cost. The cost for the ability would probably be around 72 points (assuming the base of 212 +72, you get 284 total cost for character points. Duplication cost is then 284/5 = 57 +15 points for 8x duplicates = 72). So you would then have to purchase the multiform for the wolves off of 284 points since that's the cost of the base wolf with the duplication. Now, the wolves themselves don't have the duplication power but they still have to pay for it as per the rules. So, even though the wolves are only 212 points, they still have the 72 point cost of the duplication as a 'fee'. That means that the copy wolves can't use it, but they still have to pay the points in order to properly balance them with the original. In other words, each duplicate is 100% identical to the original in abilities and cost, they just can't use the duplication ability (no copying copies).

 

Each example character follows this rule but the issue I think you had is that you did it kind of in reverse. When I make a character with duplication I set a point limit and buy the duplication first so that it's easy to calculate the cost. You built the wolves first and are trying to calculate the cost of the duplication afterwards, which makes it a bit tougher because the cost of the duplication increases as you have to budget more points to pay for it.

 

In any case, I think this will clear it up for you.

 

EDIT: Ghost-angel beat me to it but we both came up with the same cost so at least we know it's right.

[Escafarc]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Doesn't +15 give you 8x Dupes?

 

EDIT: Scooped

[Alcibiades]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Yeah it gives you 8x dupes but I don't want that many.

 

I don't see the published characters paying for the cost of Duplication. If you look at Deuce in Millennium City, she's paid only for the duplicate form, not including any cost of Duplication, unless my math is wrong.

 

EDIT: The aforementioned Elemental Man in the Duplication power description does the same thing. He's 350 points and has a 250-point Duplicate, for which he pays 50 points (250/5 = 50).

[griffinman01]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

EDIT: The aforementioned Elemental Man in the Duplication power description does the same thing. He's 350 points and has a 250-point Duplicate' date=' for which he pays 50 points (250/5 = 50).[/quote']

 

That's because there's an option where you can buy duplicates that are weaker than your base character and in that case you don't need to pay for duplication. The idea is that the duplicates are build on fewer points (ie are weaker) NOT factoring in having to pay for the duplicates:

 

Duplicates Built On Fewer Points than the

Base Character

A character may build Duplicates on less than

the base character’s full points if he wants. If a Dupli-

cate is built on less than the full Character Points

the base character is built on, the cost instead is 1

Character Point for every 5 Character Points the

Duplicate is built on, +5 Character Points for up to

two times the number of Duplicates.

Assuming the Duplicate is the same as the

base character, just with fewer abilities or less pow-

erful abilities, the Duplication does not require

an Advantage, and the GM typically should not

require the Duplicate to “pay for” the cost of

Duplication as outlined above. However, if the GM

believes the Duplicate is signifi cantly diff erent than

the base character, he should require the Duplica-

tion power to have the Altered Duplicates Advan-

tage. (In this case, calculate the percentage of points

that can diff er based on the Duplicate’s total points,

not the base character’s total points.)

 

So, based on what you said regarding your example of Elemental Man, he's built on 350 points (300 if you don't factor in his 50 point duplication) but he's building his duplicates on 250 points. That means that the duplicates are physically weaker since they're built on 50 points less. As such he would only pay the 250 points and the duplicates themselves wouldn't have to pay for the duplication cost since they're weaker than the base already. If they were AS powerful, then you would have to factor in the duplicate cost.

 

So, hypothetically, if you had your wolf pack idea where the multiform is for an "alpha wolf" that's physically built on a higher base cost (base cost of 250 points plus Duplication of 57 points (212/5 = 42 + 15 for x8 duplicates) for a total base cost of 307 points), then you could build the wolves as normal wolves built on 212 points without the need for the duplication cost. The stipulation is that the wolves also have to be similar to the original, just weaker. If they have abilities that don't exist on the base wolf, then you'd have to buy an "altered Duplicates" advantage on the duplication.

[Alcibiades]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Aha. I see. I'll just get me an alpha wolf then who costs like 5 more points.

 

In the case of Deuce, her Duplicate is actually _stronger_.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

Buying an "Alpha Wolf" with weaker Duplicates is, well, more expensive than just buying Duplication on a Wolf and costing it correctly.

[Alcibiades]

Re: Turning into a pack of wolves

 

I decided to go with this power on the main character:

 

25 The Sacred Beasts: Multiform to 300-point polar bear, killer whale, raven, or pack of wolves; true 7

form is human form), four forms (70 Active Points), Costs END (-1/2), Variable Limitations

(Personality Loss (1 Hour; -1), OIF (Magical Talismans; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations

(-1/4), and Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) (-2 ½) or Personality Loss (5 Minutes; -1 1/2) and

Side Effects (new form acquires the disadvantages Enraged in Combat (very common, 14-,

8-, 30 points, Major Side Effect, automatically occurs; -1)) (-2 ½); -1 1/4)

 

And this for the wolf pack:

 

Pack of 5 Polar Wolves Form

 

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10 STR 10 11- Lift 100 kg; 1d6 [1]

17 DEX 21 12- OCV: 6/DCV: 6

15 CON 10 13-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 13- PER Roll: 11-/15-

10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3

15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6

8 COM -1 10-

5 PD 3 Total: 11 PD (7 rPD)

3 ED 0 Total: 9 ED (7 ED)

3 SPD 3 Phases: 4, 8, 12

6 REC 0

30 END 0

23 STUN 0

-------------------------

Total Cost: 51

 

Movement: Running: 8"/16"

 

Cost Powers

-------------------------

8 Bite: HKA½d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced Penetration (-1/4) 1

1 Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)

2 Swift: Running +2" (2" total) 1

12 Wolf's Senses: +4 to PER with all Sense Groups but Sight Group

5 Wolf's Eyes: Ultraviolet Vision

5 Wolf's Nose I: Tracking for Smell

5 Wolf's Nose II: Discriminatory for Smell

3 Wolf's Ears I: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group)

2 Spirits of the North: Life Support: Safe Environment (Extreme Cold)

5 Blessed by the Animal Spirits: Life Support (Immunity: Zootoxins)

10 Mystic Talismans I: 25% Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant (15 Active Points),

OIF (-1/2)

10 Mystic Talismans II: 25% Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant (15 Active Points),

OIF (-1/2)

3 Magical Talismans III: 5 Power Defense (5 Active Points), OIF (-1/2)

3 Magical Talismans IV: 5 Mental Defense (7 total) (5 Active Points), OIF (-1/2)

12 Magical Talismans V: 6 PD 6 ED Armor (18 Active Points), OIF (-1/2)

63 A Pack of Wolves I: Duplication, creates 4 269-point Duplicates (63 Active Points),

Cannot Recombine (-0)

10 A Pack of Wolves II: Mind Link with Other Duplicates (with duplicates, 4 minds)

(20 Active Points), Only with Others who Have Mind Link (-1)

3 Pack Hunter I: +1 with HTH (5 Active Points), Must Be within 5" of Another Duplicate

(-1/2)

2 Pack Hunter II: Lightning Reflexes (+2 DEX to go first with all actions) (3 Active Points),

Must Be within 5" of Another Duplicate (-1/2)

-----------------------------------------

164

 

 

Martial Arts – Red in Tooth and Claw

----------------------------------------------

4 1) Avoid Harm: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4 2) Chomp/Swipe: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4d6 Strike

3 3) Holding Bite: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab One Limb, 20 STR to hold

3 4) Knockdown: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2d6 Strike; Target Falls

5 5) Pounce: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 Strike

-----------------------------------------------

19

 

Cost Perquisites

---------------------------

1 Environmental Movement: No penalties to move on slippery surfaces

---------------------------

1

 

Cost Skills

-----------------------------

10 +2 Hand-to-Hand

3 +1 with Navigation, Survival, and Tracking

2 AK: Northern Siberia 11-

2 CK: The Chukchi 11-

2 Concealment 11-

2 KS: Shamanism 11-

2 KS: The Spirit World 11-

2 LNG: English

2 LNG: Russian

2 Navigation (Land) 11-

3 Stealth 12-

2 Tracking 11-

--------------------------------

34

 

Total Cost: 269

 

I break my 60-AP power cap by 3 points, but what can you do.

 

Thanks everybody!