Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

[KX_Mushashi]

One of the things I have been doing in my time I haven't been here is working on a formula that I could use to start building my rather large Archive of characters from Marvel Heroes RPG and Marvel Universe as well as the list I have created since playing those games of Supers I would like to make. I am not sure if this has been done before (I know that there have been a few post about stat sets that others use but I am more looking for a celling for the stats that I can work with in), if it has sorry about the new thread on it. These stats assume Human(or Human based) in a 400 point /75 Matching /60 Active Cost limit set of creation rules. My goal is to create characters that are more balanced that what I have been making but still playable and that can fight a good selection of the characters out of the Villain books (Not sure why but I seem to be missing the mark a bit, both in games that I play in and the one that I run). Feel free to let me know if anything looks too out of Sync or to limiting.

 

Stats MAX

General

STR 20

DEX 20

CON 20

INT 20

EGO 20

PRE 20

OCV 5

DCV 5

OMCV 5

DMCV 5

SPD 5

PD 30 (20 rPD)

ED 30 (20 rED)

BODY 20

STUN 40

END 40

CSL +2

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blaster

END 80

CSL +4

Brick

STR 60

Con 40

PD 40 (30rPD)

ED 40 (30rPD)

Body 40

STUN 60

END 60

CSL +4

Gadgeteer/ Power Armor *Values above General Limits must come from Items

STR 40*

DEX 30*

CON 30*

INT 40

EGO 40

PD 40 (30rPD)*

ED 40 (30rPD)*

OCV 7*

DCV 7*

SPD 6*

BODY 30*

STUN 50*

CSL +3*

Martial Artist / Weapon Master

STR 30

CON 30

DEX 30

OCV 8

DCV 8

SPD 6

BODY 30

STUN 50

END 60

CSL +4

Mentalist

INT 40

EGO 40

OMCV 9

DMCV 9

END 60

Speedster

DEX 40

SPD 8

OCV 7

DCV 7

DMCV 7

END 80

[phydaux]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

IMO Human Stat Maximums is a personal character limitation, not a campaign limitation. I know 6th ed. isn't written that way,

 

Dex is much less of a factor in 6th ed. I wouldn't even include it in the list. Just worry about SPD & CV.

 

Wouldn't worry about STR or CON either. Just DCs & Active Points.

 

Wouldn't worry at all about INT, EGO or PRE.

 

Wouldn't worry at all about END, REC or STUN. Or BODY.

 

And I wouldn't bother breaking it down by "class" either. There is an art and a science to creating Champions characters. Character creation is a "meta-game" in and of itself, and players need to learn it.

 

I would just propose a range for PCs of the following stats:

 

DCs

SPD

CV (AFTER Martial Maneuvers EXCEPT Dodge & Martial Dodge)

PD/ED

 

Then just let your players build characters within that range.

 

One of the things I do is I allow players to excede the range in one area. This allows a player to be "The fastest man alive!" or "The strongest there is!" But I insist that if they do this then two other areas must be BELOW the sugested range. So the speedster hits like a Girl Scout, the uber-brick is slooowwwww, the mega-blaster really IS a glass cannon, etc.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

For the ones you would set limits on what range would you use for a standard game set in the Champions IP, or are my values in the correct range?

[phydaux]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

In older versions of Champs DEX was just SO powerful, and there was such a economic benifit to buy lots of DEX and by doing so end up with lots of SPD & CV "for free." (Does anyone remember that old article "The Joy of DEX"?)

 

6th ed doesn't work that way. So GMs can "get away with" a much more "low powered" campaign re: DEX, SPD & CV.

 

This is what I recommend to my players:

 

8-12 DCs

4-6 SPD

6-8 CV (AFTER Martial Maneuvers EXCEPT Dodge & Martial Dodge)

18-30 PD/ED

 

And like I said, allow players to exced in one area at the expence of two other areas.

 

This is basically enforcing genera. I player can spend all their points and buy up to max in all areas and be Captain Marvel - Awesome in combat and mostly useless the rest of the time. Or they can only buy to the lower range in each area and spend the left over points on skills & contacts and they're Batman. Or they can buy SPD 8, 6DCs and PD/ED 10 and they're The Flash.

[gojira]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

The other limit is Strength, which should be the same as your AP for powers, since Str is basically also an attack power. If your normal campaign limit is 12 DCs and 75 AP for powers, then Str is limited to 60 (12 DCs) and 75 AP for other advantages, like maybe Armor Piercing. Reduced Endurance doesn't count for AP in most people's games.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

Thank you that is helpful, for the DCs is that before or after maneuvers? For example a person with 60 str preforming a move through.

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

Well, PD/ED 40 is not brick, its basically invulnerable brick (generally 30 is considered the top for 400 pts). If you are playing a more combat focused campaign then it may be appropriate (if average attacks are around 16d6) but in the standard 8-12 DC world (which most villains seem to be geared towards fighting) that level of defense makes them untouchable (12d6 averages 42 damage, so your brick will take a whopping 2 points of stun, and anything less than that will simply tickle.) Also, unless KA's are a VERY common feature 1/2 resistant is usually more than enough (15 rPD means you take no body from the average 4d6 KA (60 AP)). Again everything is relative to what the rest of your stats are (combat heavy games may have 80 AP caps so 16d6 becomes common and 40 DEF is brick territory). Also CON 40 is just ridiculous. In 6e it only prevents stunning (and some forms of attacks that work vs CON not BODY which are not likely to be common. Of course it doesn't hurt but its really just wasted points.

 

These are all just opinions of course, your milage may vary, but overall you seem to be favoring stats WAY too high (most of your numbers seem high to me, other than CV, generally CV averages to about 8 (which gives you +5 over DCV 3 meaning you can easily hit "a spot on the ground", and only fail to hit DCV 0 on a crit fail).

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

Generally you do not include maneuvers, although opinions differ (anyone can get +4 DC's with a Haymaker for instance, and that requires 24m of movement for Move Through to match).

 

My current solution is to use Caps and Maxes (12 DC cap, 16 DC Max). Basically you can have 12 DC in standard abilities (STR, KA, Blast, whatever), that doesnt include modifiers from maneuvers, CSL's, etc, but you can NEVER roll more than 16 DC, no matter how you do it. This gives me a good range so I can create/modify/use villains that wont be perma-stunned by someone "gaming" the cap system (12 DC +6 CSL all on damage + Movethrough at max speed or some other insanity like that.)

 

But thats just me, and I am very "balance" focused as a GM. Many other players have different ways of doing things.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

A lot of the stats came from a combination of the characters in the villain books and what is in the 6th ed champion book. I threw out characters from the villain handbooks that where 700+ points(the champions book said witchcraft(400) was as powerful as talisman(600-680) in the same book. I tossed two of the members in my group against Piledriver listed as a ~550 point character. The two characters are brick like (one is a brick and the other I conciser more brick like then a brick) and through a combination of missed attacks and poor rolls on Damage I think they managed a whole two points of damage to him and ran. In the game I am/was playing in at Hero Central the very frist attack with using my new build of Shroud (close to the one I posted here after the edits) would have been into the negative on stun after the attack had he been the target.

 

So what I am getting from this is I probably have to do alter the villains to work in a 'standard' game.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

I am trying to be balanced minded I think it is more fun personally and when I create characters I try to create balanced and fun characters for me to play so this is all helping for when I roll out my next batch of characters.

[phydaux]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

Thank you that is helpful' date=' for the DCs is that before or after maneuvers? For example a person with 60 str preforming a move through.[/quote']

 

Supers play in a dangerous world. I allow players to augment their DCs via maneuvers. but like I said I put a cap on CV augmentation via Martial Maneuvers because I've seen that abused.

 

I do allow players to hit CV cap and then buy more skill levels to offset CV penalties. for example to offset range penalties. Or hit location penalties.

 

So yes, I allow blasters to have 8 OCV with +4 to offset range and +4 to offset hit location. And ding head shots from 50 meters away. I just remind them that I build my campaign villians to the same standards I set for my PCs.

 

[incert]Evil Laugh[/incert]

[phydaux]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

A lot of the stats came from a combination of the characters in the villain books and what is in the 6th ed champion book. I threw out characters from the villain handbooks that where 700+ points(the champions book said witchcraft(400) was as powerful as talisman(600-680) in the same book. I tossed two of the members in my group against Piledriver listed as a ~550 point character. The two characters are brick like (one is a brick and the other I conciser more brick like then a brick) and through a combination of missed attacks and poor rolls on Damage I think they managed a whole two points of damage to him and ran. In the game I am/was playing in at Hero Central the very frist attack with using my new build of Shroud (close to the one I posted here after the edits) would have been into the negative on stun after the attack had he been the target.

 

So what I am getting from this is I probably have to do alter the villains to work in a 'standard' game.

 

Yes, book heroes and book villians are all over the map when it comes to relative power level.

 

I tell my players that they are to make their characters according to the "campaign norms" I outline above. I then promise them that my villians will be built to the SAME norms except for campaign-level master villians.

 

I exparamented with having a few "campaign level NPC heroes" in my game world, but they lead to a whole lot of butthurt among my players that their characters weren't the top dogs. So I scrapped it. If I need a "GM hammer" to keep my players on the straight & narrow, then a well constructed & played super team of slightly less powerful heroes can, in my experence, take down even the best PCs.

[psyber624]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

most of the villains in the villain books are either designed to be taken down by a team of players or using special tactics. There is a moderately deep tactical level to HERO that new players often are not aware of. Especially if the GM IS aware and uses maneuvers and tactics then point values may not always come out the same. Also, many book villains have power constructs that are flat out cheap (one of the villains in Arcane Adversaries has over 25 slots in a multipower for instance). They are usually designed to be a challenge (at least the named ones.) Post some actual builds on here and we will gladly review them for you (although make sure you have a thick skin first, some people can be downright nasty when it comes to ripping apart a character (heck I have to watch what I post myself from time to time.....))

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Looking for Feed back on Sat guide lines

 

I have posted one build here so far and I think it went well I think. I will be taking everything from here and applying it to characters I make. Thank you to the three that gave feed back I think it will help me out a bit.