5th ed. What is your enchantment mechanic?

[Wardsman]

• Well I've seen a skill based system in 4th ed that required time an endurance.
• We have the Create effect.
• You could build one with transform
• You could used extended skill rolls and difficulty checks from ultimate skill

What have y'all used?

 

[eepjr24]

I like Killer Shrikes stuff on it. Kestrel has a good bit of content around it as well.

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItemsArtificing_Permanent.aspx#Crafting Permanent Items

[NuSoardGraphite]

Extended skill rolls.

 

Difficulty is based on the active points of the object. Very powerful items with lots of different effects can be very difficult to successfully enchant.

 

Collecting the proper materials and making adjustments in an attempt to lower the difficulty. Possibly a ritual for a very powerful item.

 

Determine base time to create and enchant object. Time can be shortened or extended which affects difficulty.

[eepjr24]

Yep, most of the above is covered by Killer Shrike. I add in advantages for using higher quality materials, researching the best time of day / month / year to enchant the item, extra time in research, creation, etc. Still not trivial in most games unless certain items are trivial for that setting.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

I'm finding out that a lot of people are not familiar with the Create effect.

 

I must admit it took awhile for me to warm to it. Mostly because I dislike enchanter class or schools. I think you should have to go to a pyromancer who knows how to enchant to get a Ring of Fire.

 

I dislike Enchanter classes that can make Ring of Fire one day and a Wand of Cold the next without knowing those spells or schools of magic.

However Wayland the Smith and Dwarven Artificers don't bother me. 

No I don't know why.

 

Anyway the Create effect goes back to FH 1st edition. Tula Morn has Smith style of Magic built on it. And I've been thinking about a ritual system where it is the main effect and the characters must build their tools.

 

It is one way to do in enchantment(create magic items,curses)  in Hero System. By default it uses an existing power effect with all its modifiers as its base effect to which you add advantages and limitations not unlike differing Differing Modifiers for Usable By Others on page 177 of the original 5th Edition Hero System.

 

The Create effect I'm using is from page 279 of 5th Edition Fantasy Hero, top of the second column. I've been told there is a version in 6th editions FHC.

A non-fantasy use would be to use it to stat out Green Lanterns ability to create backup  power rings. Or a nanotech seed that creates bases or vehicles.

 

In such a system you don't use the independent limitation. Nor do you pay character points for the magic items or enchantments on the land or other characters. The cost is time and LTE to create the enchantments!

 

You start by defining the effect you want in the item or enchanted on a person or place. Remember, rules as written, an effect with its modifiers is a different effect than  the base effect. Example 3D6 RKA Fire AoE Conforming,  is a different effect than 3D6 RKA Fire. Add your advantages and limitations for the effect. This becomes the base effect for the Create effect which has it's own Advantages and Limitations.

I think this bit of recursion is where people's minds rebel.

 

 

The base time for Create is 1 day per 10AP. It is considered to be No Range, Instant power that cost 1 LTE per 10 AP.

Shortening the time is an advantage .  I think there are adders for doing multiple items. And you can add standard advantages and limitations.

 

 

Example: Wand of Magery

 

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

 

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

 

 

 

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

If I wanted to require that this be done in his Sanctum Sanctorum, Casting Circle,Spell Lab or Inner Sanctum I would add Immobile

Basic Incantations , Gestures, and Concentration (1/2 DCV) - 3/4

Requires two skill rolls (Wood Carving and Magic)                  -3/4

 

Total limitations -3

Real cost : 2.5 or 2

Create Wand of Magery Cost  2 character point, -1 to rolls, costs 1 LTE to cast

 

Description:

 

Using wood collected from a rare type tree that has been recently struck by lightning,  the mage takes a day to handcraft the wand before enchantment.

 

Note: The magic Item does not cost character points but can be destroyed by dispell or suppression.

The same is true for Create effects where the target is the land or a character. (I'll post the tattoo magic effects later)

[eepjr24]

People may not know it because it is never referred to in the book as "Create Effect". It is in a section called "Alternate Enchanted Item Creation Rules". I have my own item creation rules that I use, based roughly around the ones that Killer Shrike uses for his. Mine is logarithmic (O(log N)) since I prefer that to straight linear equasions for magical power. I also dislike the idea of putting limitations on a previously limited cost. I generally even recalculate talents at their base AP before creating spells from them.

 

Lastly I don't find the system granular enough. I base the time of creation off a formula using AP, RP and a modifier for the tier of power. This can be altered by material quality or risk of botching the process by rushing it (trust in your skill roll to make it through).

 

- E

[Wardsman]

People may not know it because it is never referred to in the book as "Create Effect". It is in a section called "Alternate Enchanted Item Creation Rules". I have my own item creation rules that I use, based roughly around the ones that Killer Shrike uses for his. Mine is logarithmic (O(log N)) since I prefer that to straight linear equasions for magical power. I also dislike the idea of putting limitations on a previously limited cost. I generally even recalculate talents at their base AP before creating spells from them.

 

Lastly I don't find the system granular enough. I base the time of creation off a formula using AP, RP and a modifier for the tier of power. This can be altered by material quality or risk of botching the process by rushing it (trust in your skill roll to make it through).

 

- E

Thanks for the comments.

I call it the Create effect because that is what FH1 called it and I have known it by that name for a very long time.

Besides "Alternate Enchanted Item Creation Rules" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

[Wardsman]

I'm finding out that a lot of people are not familiar with the Create effect.

 

I must admit it took awhile for me to warm to it. Mostly because I dislike enchanter class or schools. I think you should have to go to a pyromancer who knows how to enchant to get a Ring of Fire.

 

I dislike Enchanter classes that can make Ring of Fire one day and a Wand of Cold the next without knowing those spells or schools of magic.

However Wayland the Smith and Dwarven Artificers don't bother me. 

No I don't know why.

 

Anyway the Create effect goes back to FH 1st edition. Tula Morn has Smith style of Magic built on it. And I've been thinking about a ritual system where it is the main effect and the characters must build their tools.

 

It is one way to do in enchantment(create magic items,curses)  in Hero System. By default it uses an existing power effect with all its modifiers as its base effect to which you add advantages and limitations not unlike differing Differing Modifiers for Usable By Others on page 177 of the original 5th Edition Hero System.

 

The Create effect I'm using is from page 279 of 5th Edition Fantasy Hero, top of the second column. I've been told there is a version in 6th editions FHC.

A non-fantasy use would be to use it to stat out Green Lanterns ability to create backup  power rings. Or a nanotech seed that creates bases or vehicles.

 

In such a system you don't use the independent limitation. Nor do you pay character points for the magic items or enchantments on the land or other characters. The cost is time and LTE to create the enchantments!

 

You start by defining the effect you want in the item or enchanted on a person or place. Remember, rules as written, an effect with its modifiers is a different effect than  the base effect. Example 3D6 RKA Fire AoE Conforming,  is a different effect than 3D6 RKA Fire. Add your advantages and limitations for the effect. This becomes the base effect for the Create effect which has it's own Advantages and Limitations.

I think this bit of recursion is where people's minds rebel.

 

 

The base time for Create is 1 day per 10AP. It is considered to be No Range, Instant power that cost 1 LTE per 10 AP.

Shortening the time is an advantage .  I think there are adders for doing multiple items. And you can add standard advantages and limitations.

 

 

Example: Wand of Magery

 

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

 

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

 

 

 

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

If I wanted to require that this be done in his Sanctum Sanctorum, Casting Circle,Spell Lab or Inner Sanctum I would add Immobile

Basic Incantations , Gestures, and Concentration (1/2 DCV) - 3/4

Requires two skill rolls (Wood Carving and Magic)                  -3/4

 

Total limitations -3

Real cost : 2.5 or 2

Create Wand of Magery Cost  2 character point, -1 to rolls, costs 1 LTE to cast

 

Description:

 

Using wood collected from a rare type tree that has been recently struck by lightning,  the mage takes a day to handcraft the wand before enchantment.

 

Note: The magic Item does not cost character points but can be destroyed by dispell or suppression.

The same is true for Create effects where the target is the land or a character. (I'll post the tattoo magic effects later)

 

Found some interesting rules in ultimate skill.

Since I'm going to require two skill rolls, one create or forge the item and one to enchant,  I thought I'd use them.

 

The first idea is to reduce the time it takes to make the item based on how much the roll is made.

The base time is 1 day  per 10 active points unless modifiers are applied.

I think I will let the player shorten that based on his crafting roll.

Say making it by 3 point moves it up one step on the time chart.

 

Meanwhile making his enchant rule by a few points could lead to a more powerful item if the player wants to expend the extra LTE.

 

if the Skill Roll is used to operate a power with the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation, for every point the character makes the roll by, he can (if he chooses) increase the effectiveness of (i.e., Active Points in) the power by 10% (or some other amount). The character must pay the extra END for the bonus Active Points used.

 

 

I think that might add some flavour to the system.

 

Originally I was going to apply a +3 to enchant rolls if the character made the item himself and -3 if he didn't. But the using the Create Effect system has its own bonuses and negatives for that. I still may apply a negative if someone else makes the item but allow complimentary rolls like I had originally planned.

[eepjr24]

Sounds like you are tending towards magic items being both powerful and reasonably easy to create. If that is what you want, should work fine.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

 

Sounds like you are tending towards magic items being both powerful and reasonably easy to create. If that is what you want, should work fine.

 

- E

 

yes and no. You still need to spend some time and LTE to do it.

And you need an appropriate craft skill.

 

A wand maker won't be able to forge a sword unless he has that skill as well.

[eepjr24]

yes and no. You still need to spend some time and LTE to do it.

And you need an appropriate craft skill.

 

A wand maker won't be able to forge a sword unless he has that skill as well.

LTE is a trivial barrier for item creation. 

Skill is not expensive either, generally. And I would greatly prefer wands to swords, myself. =)

 

So I would probably want a couple of recipes. The first would probably be that Wand of Magery to make it easier to make other wands later.

 

8 PS: Wandmaker 17-

2 KS: Wand Making 11-

2 Wand of Magery

3 Wand of Fireballs

 

So for 15 points I can make a wand of Magery. That gives me a bonus to my rolls for wandmaking, meaning on average I will make a regular wand of magery every hour (I make my roll by 6 on average after the complimentary KS roll offsets the -1 for AP). If I make 8 of them a day (start at 8am, stop for lunch and take a long siesta, start again at 5:30 PM after dinner and make 4 more before bed), I will suffer 0 LTE for the day. I would probably wait for a really lucky roll on one to get me a wand that added +4 instead of +2, since that would help future wand creation.

 

That should give me enough money for the supplies for a few wands of fireball. If they are 30 AP you would need an additional 1/4 limitation to make the points 3 RP (I would suggest dropping concentration and switching to Full Phase). My Improved Wand of Magery would offset the AP penalty for this wand and I could start turning out wands of fireball pretty quickly as well.

 

This is just a demonstration of what could happen. Obviously, YMMV. You will probably want to require research for new "recipes". 

 

A couple side notes: You are double counting the OAF limitation, I think? The wand is made from the rare lightning struck mulberry (or whatever), correct?If so, then the OAF would be -1 on the "create wand" then another -1/2 on the "create wand of magery", instead of -1 1/2? Also, these wands have unlimited charges? Or you require some sort of limitation on offensive ones?

[L. Marcus]

For my part, I go with the expanded Weaponsmith Skill (5E FH p. 96-97) and more advanced additions to the Fine Weapons list (p. 183-184). The idea is that magical weapons and other objects are created by master craftsmen, not wizard enchanters. The Skill Roll penalties for magic effects are of course steeper than for the more mundane ones, and can only be created under exceptional circumstances and only once per effect.

[Wardsman]

LTE is a trivial barrier for item creation. 

Skill is not expensive either, generally. And I would greatly prefer wands to swords, myself. =)

 

So I would probably want a couple of recipes. The first would probably be that Wand of Magery to make it easier to make other wands later.

 

8 PS: Wandmaker 17-

2 KS: Wand Making 11-

2 Wand of Magery

3 Wand of Fireballs

 

So for 15 points I can make a wand of Magery. That gives me a bonus to my rolls for wandmaking, meaning on average I will make a regular wand of magery every hour (I make my roll by 6 on average after the complimentary KS roll offsets the -1 for AP). If I make 8 of them a day (start at 8am, stop for lunch and take a long siesta, start again at 5:30 PM after dinner and make 4 more before bed), I will suffer 0 LTE for the day. I would probably wait for a really lucky roll on one to get me a wand that added +4 instead of +2, since that would help future wand creation.

 

That should give me enough money for the supplies for a few wands of fireball. If they are 30 AP you would need an additional 1/4 limitation to make the points 3 RP (I would suggest dropping concentration and switching to Full Phase). My Improved Wand of Magery would offset the AP penalty for this wand and I could start turning out wands of fireball pretty quickly as well.

 

This is just a demonstration of what could happen. Obviously, YMMV. You will probably want to require research for new "recipes". 

 

Steve Long suggests the active penalty be applied to both rolls, I tend to go -1/ 5 AP. Both would affect how much a boost a player gets. I have to mull my tradition -1/5 over in regards to that.

after all 10% of 15 active points isn't much. It takes a 50 point spell to hit 5 points per 10 %.

 

I was looking at a way to build a weak (low active point) enchant that could on a good roll create  moderate item.

Looks like like if I did that I need to boost the bonus and start all enchant spells at low lever for balance or come up with a reason ther 50AP spell only get 10% boost while the 5 or 10 AP lowlevel spell gets a higher boost.

 

A couple side notes: You are double counting the OAF limitation, I think? The wand is made from the rare lightning struck mulberry (or whatever), correct?If so, then the OAF would be -1 on the "create wand" then another -1/2 on the "create wand of magery", instead of -1 1/2? Also, these wands have unlimited charges? Or you require some sort of limitation on offensive ones? 

 

Strangely enough I only have -1 OAF, It should have a more due difficulty in finding a lightning struck tree.

I didn't have a Focus in the Create Wand. Though you could argue it does apply with expendable.

[Wardsman]

For my part, I go with the expanded Weaponsmith Skill (5E FH p. 96-97) and more advanced additions to the Fine Weapons list (p. 183-184). The idea is that magical weapons and other objects are created by master craftsmen, not wizard enchanters. The Skill Roll penalties for magic effects are of course steeper than for the more mundane ones, and can only be created under exceptional circumstances and only once per effect.

You can have both and I like your thinking on that.

You think a crit on Swordsmithing  would create an unreal weapon?

 

But how do you build a  wand of fireballs?

[L. Marcus]

I don't -- not for my Dagrike setting, at least.

[Wardsman]

I don't -- not for my Dagrike setting, at least.

very low magic. I'm building a basic toolkit myself that may change from setting to setting.

Mostly on spell where spell END comes from.

[eepjr24]

Strangely enough I only have -1 OAF, It should have a more due difficulty in finding a lightning struck tree.

I didn't have a Focus in the Create Wand. Though you could argue it does apply with expendable.

Huh? Emphasis mine:

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

 

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

 

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

 

Basic Incantations , Gestures, and Concentration (1/2 DCV) - 3/4

Requires two skill rolls (Wood Carving and Magic)                  -3/4

 

Total limitations -3

Real cost : 2.5 or 2

Create Wand of Magery Cost  2 character point, -1 to rolls, costs 1 LTE to cast

 

What am I missing?

[Wardsman]

Huh? Emphasis mine:

 

What am I missing?

Example: Wand of Magery

 

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

 

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

 

 

 

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

 

I got it wrong in one spot but right in another.

It should be similar in the base effect except for expendable.

You don't expend the wand when using it. You just expend the raw material to make the wand when creating or enchanting the wand.

[eepjr24]

Right, but you are applying the limitation twice. If you apply the -1 on the first step you should only apply the -1/2 on the second. You don't get the -1 for it being a focus twice.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

Right, but you are applying the limitation twice. If you apply the -1 on the first step you should only apply the -1/2 on the second. You don't get the -1 for it being a focus twice.

 

- E

sez who?

Technically the focus in the second step is raw materials not the the finished wand.

[eepjr24]

sez who?

Technically the focus in the second step is raw materials not the the finished wand.

<shrug> Okay, your game, do what you want. I was just trying to help.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

<shrug> Okay, your game, do what you want. I was just trying to help.

 

- E

Look at the example at the bottom of p. 279, 2nd column,  5th Ed. FH.

They are running the previous example of a sword creation on p. 278 through the alternate process. In both cases they give OAF and then some.

Remember under this version of Create Effect you don't get the -2 independent bonus on the item.

 

I'm just going by RAW.

[eepjr24]

RAW, FH5e, 279, emphasis mine.

If the creation process requires a laboratory, materials other than the item to be enchanted, and the like, apply the Focus Limitation.

So to Apply the OAF: Expendable, they said:

Kasdrevan thinks creating his magical sword should be a difficult, time-consuming process requiring lots of paraphernalia. He applies the following Limitations: OAF Expendable (item creation supplies, Difficult to obtain;-1¼)

And then under Focus (FH5e 132)

For an additional -½ Limitation, the Focus is Very Difficult to obtain. This means much the same as Difficult, but to an increased degree. For example, the material may cost as much as 100 times an average working man’s daily wage for one casting’s worth, or a character must have a higher degree of Skill (typically a base roll +4) to successfully make the item. If a character can gather the item, it’s probably a lot harder to find or more dangerous to get. Just possessing the item may be highly illegal, or inflict a temporary Social Limitation on the character. Examples include exotic drugs brewed by alchemists using flowers from distant realms, human blood, dragon’s scales, or a small gemstone.

 

Not sure how a piece of wood struck by lightning is as rare as dragon scales or costs 100 times an average workers salary. But maybe I am not understanding correctly.

 

I am gonna leave it with that. You are entitled to play your game however you like, but your interpretation does not jive with the examples in the book. The sword has taken a lower value of the limitation for what seems like more effort and material than the wand requires. My only further comment is that it is always easier to make something LESS difficult to do after it is in the game than it is to make something more difficult to do.

 

- E