Question that's come up....

[Yesman]

Hello,

 

here's an interesting (at least to me) question that's come up....

 

to preface: Here's the power the player in question has

Disabling Cut

2d6 Killing (30 AP)

OAF: Short Bladed Weapon (shortsword or smaller)(-1)

Only to Disable/Impair Arms & Legs (-1)

Must hit with a -8 Hit Loc. Penalty (-1)

Original attack must do body (-1/2)

No Str added to damage (-1/2)

Cost: 6 pts.

Endurance Cost: 3pts.

 

The power is meant to represent a charaters ability to disable his opponents limbs with precision strikes to joints, veins, tendons, ligaments, etc. [ edited for clairity: The attack requires the character to cut his foe and do at least a point of damage on that attack to gain the extra "disabling damage".

 

Here's his question...

Hmmmm. I want to make sure I understand how this works. If I roll good enough to hit, but not good enough to hit with a -4 penalty (the effective result of a -8 penalty and the +4 PSL's), what happens? Does the attack completelty fail, or does it just become a normal attack doing normal damage?

 

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, the disads apply only to the extra disabling damage, so I can see where only that damage is affected by the hit location roll. On the other hand, the location should be called with the attack that causes the damage, and if it's missed... it's missed.....

 

any Ideas for a conflicted GM ?

 

The original post in it's unabridged version is at:

http://www.theinterzone.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23

[Talon]

"only to disable/impair" says to me that the attack doesn't do damage under any circumstances.

 

"must hit with -8" says to me that if you miss with a -8, you miss completely.

 

If it misses, it misses completely. Under no circumstances can it "become a normal attack" -- that is, unless the character buys the Limitations off.

[Yesman]

I'm not so sure, the extra damage is conditional on the character involvd sucessfully doing bod with an attack using the appropriate focus.... so the normal attack's damage would apply if it hit....

 

The real question is whether or not the dagger attack (for example) that causes the "Disabling Cut" should inherit the need to hit the -8 Hit Location to do it's damage as well. That might be a better way to phrase my original thinking....

[Vondy]

1) I wouldn't allow the must hit with a -8 DCV penalty (they're taking that pen for the called shot anyway, and a miss is a miss and a hit is a hit).

2) I would make it clear to the player that "only to disable" means just that. The attack does not do extra damage to the target, rather, it only serves to increase the likelyhood that the disabling rules will come into play.

 

Personally, I'd think long and hard before allowing this power into my game. In most "heroic" level games (some high fantasy is "superheroic" IMHO) I'd probably say no.

[Killer Shrike]

I recommend that you do this as a Drain vs DEX (and/or STR, CON, or BODY as seems appropriate) on a Set Trigger "Only Vs Opponent Struck By Sword Blow With To Hit Roll Made By Eight Or More", which is at least a -1 Limited Power Limitation.

 

OIF (Sword of Opportunity), etc.

 

Call it Wounding Strike or somesuch and you are in business. Put the Fade Rate at whatever increment you want the "wound" to "heal".

[Talon]

Ah, I see.

 

A character attacks with a Multiple Power Attack using (say) a dagger and this power.

 

Since MPAs normally adopt the lowest applicable OCV, I would keep the same ruling: you either hit at -8 or you don't hit at all. If you don't want it to work that way, change "-8 OCV" to "only when arms/legs are hit" -- that way the character can do normal damage, but whenever he hits a limb he has a much better chance to Impair/Disable. This may not be the flavor you want, though.

[Yesman]

Thanks Talon, that hit the nail on the head.

 

and thanks to everyone else that posted.

 

Shrike, I did at first model the power as a drain to dex and mov (a hamstring attack essentially) then changed my mind and decided to add dice only good for disabling. The drain just didn't feel right for the game. I would certainly go that way if it were a super-hero game though...

[dugfromthearth]

I allow flash to be purchased for disabling.

 

buy flash for targetting sense and just apply it to disable a limb (same duration limitation). A successful CON roll turns the result into crippling (like making an alternate sense roll if flashed). Blocked by lack of weakness instead of flash defense.

[Fireg0lem]

Really, I don't see why it couldn't work either way. The limitation could be "Doesn't have any effect if attack doesn't hit by 8 or more," or the way it is being interpreted. Just get the player to clarify, and assign disad value based on that. If it is "must hit by 8 or more," then look at it comparably to activation roll. BTW, disallow the PSLs. If he wants it to be "4 or more," change the limitation.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Yesman

Shrike, I did at first model the power as a drain to dex and mov (a hamstring attack essentially) then changed my mind and decided to add dice only good for disabling. The drain just didn't feel right for the game. I would certainly go that way if it were a super-hero game though...

 

You are using an HKA contruct in your opening post; why not a Drain then?

 

I'd just like to point out that "Powers" are not just for "Super-powers". They are purchasable game mechanics, nothing more. If you have an Effect you want to acheive, and there isnt a Skill or Talent to cover it then you whip up a Power construct.

 

Drain isnt some mystical/mutant/superpowered Effect unless you declare it to be as part of its SFX. Drain is the mechanic by which one Character lowers the characteristics or abilities of another Character. If that is accomplished by a well placed Sword stroke cutting tendons or what have you, then there's nothing superheroic about it -- its just an expression of a form of advanced mastery of a weapon.

 

If the desired Effect is "I want the opponent to suffer long term damage from my attacks" then HKA is not the best way to go about it. Basing the attack on an HKA has nothing to do w/ disabling or imparting long term harm on a person, and everything to do with killing a person. Throwing on a Limitation "Only to Disable" to counter act this behavior begs the question why use HKA at all? You are paying 15 points per d6 for a mechanic, and then limiting away the only thing that particular mechanic does -- so why use the mechanic in the first place?

 

But, if that's the way you prefer to go then more power to you. There is certainly room for more than 1 way to do things in the HERO System and if the end effect is what you intend then no harm no foul.

[Yesman]

The main reason I moved away from the drain, and toward extra dice for disabling was that a mechanic already exists for disabling limbs.... that mechanic is based on Body damage. Hence the HKA with the limit. Why add a new power to the mix? Also... a drain doesn't disable a limb, It reduces a(n) attribute(s). For a Heroic level game, this just seemed closer to what I wanted. Believe me, I have no qualms with adding powers to characters.