Agent X

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I'll bite Have you seen the Bob Ingersoll column "The Law is a ***"? He's a comics loving lawyer' date=' and every column deals with some legality as portrayed in the comics. This reminds me of some of his writngs on Daredevil. DD, being a lawyer, is subject to the greatest, and most merciless scrutiny. Really interesting stuff, and funnier than hell. It looks like he quit writng them a couple years ago, but the articles are archived online.[/quote'] Where can I find this!?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I don't think that's relevant to my point' date=' I'm just saying that if he didn't have his suit on at all he is well removed from an opportunity to beat down any demi-god, by design. With his suit, I don't count his beating down of a demi-god as in the same range as Spiderman or Captain America since he's got, essentially, a weapon. Make sense? Or did I misunderstand your point/question?[/quote'] I was just using that as an opportunity to point out the force field thing.

 

Another tangent: And Iron Man has taken down Silver Surfer by channeling Silver Surfer's attack back through his suit and then pummeling Silver Surfer with it. The thing is it took Iron Man out in the process.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I'm more concerned with the brain getting bounced around inside the skull than the body getting bounced around inside the suit.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spider-Man != Ego the Living Planet.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Your's and AgentX' feeble excuses that this isn't all a ploy to see them naked does not impress me!

 

 

(PS - although AgentX' interest does surprise me!)

[My point was that Black Bolt wears his costume all the time but that doesn't mean his power comes from it.]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Yes. Thor Stunned him once, out of how many blows?

 

Saying it's a regular thing is a bit much.

Most of them get interrupted or they just choose to stop before we see what the end result would be.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I think Iron Man is in the class of those quintessential mortal heroes this can't happen to by design of their mythos. As long as his suit is on' date=' anyway. I didn't include him in the response to Snake Ghandi above because of his suit.[/quote'] On Iron Man's suit, for a long time it was explained that his suit had an electromagnetic force field riding along the chain mesh that made it so tough. IOW, he had a force field. Sounds to me like he's not getting bounced around inside the can if that is the case.

 

Has this changed in the last decade or so?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

At first I left it in rep world as I repped this' date=' but I do want to say, I really think this is a good rise above a fanboyish obsession with "who hit who" and is more to the reality of storytelling in comics. Like metagaming, it's not (necessarily) a bad thing, either.[/quote'] As a general statement, I don't have a real problem with it. Assuming that there is a contradiction between Spidey's problems with Hammerhead and his ability to rise to the challenge against Firelord is what I have a problem with.

 

Just because you can explain anything with that method doesn't mean you always have to.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Let's start with first apperance. Kept the fight going long enough for Thor to show up, then signaled Galactus. Which is what he wanted to do.

 

That's Firelord 1-0 at that point.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Oh, I'm well versed in rhetorical questions, but when said question is the only things posted, and its posted in an insulting manner, its not unusual for the target to get a bit insulted.

 

 

IIR my first posts was 'I can't believe people think Spider-man beating up Firelord was okay'. That counts as a broad, unsupported claim?

It certainly didn't contribute anything other than a "me too" post. Perhaps if you had explained why as in what your position was and why you didn't agree with the "other" camp it would have come off as thoughtful.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

You don't *understand*' date=' Snake. Only *they're* allowed to team up with each other. *We* each have to do it 100% individually, nobody allowed to build their arguments off the arguments of anybody else. It's fairer that way, you see. [/quote'] It always helps to cite someone else's arguments that you are building off of.

 

But I have no problem with Snake Gandhi using the evidence presented in this thread. Why would I? It supports my position.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Part of the Thor/Hercules/Firelord team-up that smacked down Ego the Living Planet' date=' does that count? No, of course it doesn't, some excuse will be manufactured immediately, I'm sure.[/quote'] According to your scans, Rhino won one fight with the Hulk.

 

How many fights do most supervillains win?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And you displayed that annoyance' date=' though why you where annoyed at me when I'm far from the only one saying these things is beyond me, by first assuming I knew nothing about Spider-Man, then by assuming I didn't even read comics.[/quote'] You don't get rhetorical questions do you? [This is a rhetorical question.]

 

By asking if you've read some Spider-Man comics I was letting you know that I think there was plenty of support in my reading of them and that I didn't think you had the right issues. If you took offense, it's because you wanted to.

 

And for the record' date=' I did read the whole thread. Its a habit of mine.[/quote'] Your posts wouldn't indicate it as you didn't argue against previous points or even reference them. You simply made broad, unsupported claims.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And of course' date=' the reason is 'Why should I post evidence that McCoy and Chuckg already have?' Or are *we* both on *their* ignore lists?[/quote'] You're really having a hard time ignoring us.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

So?

 

Because I've choosen not to put forth evidence for various reason, that mean my opinion is invaild? Or that I'm not welcome in here?

 

Gods, first Agent X assumes I'm ignorant, now this?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spiderman has punched out Rhino when he was mildly annoyed. Just because Hulk doesn't one-punch him every time doesn't mean squat.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

They are claiming that Rhino isn't armor dependent.

 

Two of my favorite comic book fights are where Juggernaut, out of armor, schools Colossus and Captain Britian. If Rhino's powers aren't in the Suit, surely thay can pint me to a drawing showing this.

 

As far as Black Bolt, *shrug,* didn't know his costume was a focus.

As far as the claim, why are you bound and determined to demand proof about Rhino's powers out of his suit. Are you just going to try to doubt everything to death to try to wear us down?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Ignore him' date=' he's just doing the trick of taking an "[b']IF[/b] Spidey can leak STUN through Firelord's defenses..." and claiming that it's "I agree that Spidey can leak STUN through Firelord's defenses."

 

Of course, doing stuff like this is why I *am* ignoring him, Snake, is why I didn't see his attempt until you quoted it.

 

(add)

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Oooo, lookit that, there's that "if" word again!

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Absolutely correct. If Spidey was only leaking 1-2 STUN per punch, then that doesn't explain why Firelord just took all those punches without *doing something about it*.

 

And no, 'allegedly trying and failing to punch Spidey over and over and over and over again, for long enough to be taken way into DM's Discretion only 1-2 STUN at a time, without *once* reailzing that if he's missed the dude 20 times in a row he really needs to try something else', doesn't count. That's also "Writer's Fiat Forcing Firelord To Totally Mook Out."

 

Especially when the alleged trying isn't even *visible* anywhere.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Besides the time with Super-Spider' date=' when was he less durable?[/quote'] I dunno. It goes back to the nature of the Power Cosmic and some observations about how Silver Surfer uses it.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Ok' date=' you guys, I'm not sure I like where this is headed... [/quote']

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I understand' date=' and acknowledge, that your point is that Spider-Man has an undocumented find weakness ability.[/quote'] I'm not limited to concepts in HERO. I use HERO language as a short-hand but I never declared anything of the sort. It could simply be that Spidey can roll high once in a while.

 

 

And I thank you for that. It reminded me of an earlier post i ment to respond to.

 

 

And how long would it take a non-jobbed Pyreus Kril to realize his defenses should be amped? I would think the second time he took STUN would do it. First may have been a lucky shot.

He may not have been thinking of anything but laying his hands on Spider-Man regardless of what the logical thing to do would be. People sometimes act on emotion regardless of new input.

 

So I'm taking that as support for my contention that in that final blitz he had to be stunned by the first haymaker' date=' or knocked out by the followup kick. Otherwise he would have either (1) attacked effectively (2) ramped his defenses or (3) remembered he could fly out of reach and reasses the situation.[/quote'] Of course, this is all built on the idea that Firelord would have reflected on the situation instead of acting like a hot-head. Sorry, but my take on him based on his behavior is that he is indeed a bit of a hot-head, both figuratively and literally.

 

The one or two STUN per punch getting over his defenses and nickle and dimeing him to death scenerio simply does not work without him being under a mandate to act like a mook.

Again, we're not constrained to numbers from HERO and you use this word mook here as if it means something. Spidey isn't facing a mook when he spends a great deal of time dodging and finally turns around and goes Savage Spider on him in a maddened panic. Mooks don't scare Spidey like that.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

No' date=' but I also wouldn't put him in the same toughness class as Thor. The Human component is the weak link. No matter how much damage the armor stops, there is just so much shaking and G-force that Stark can take. I think an opponent like Thor or the Hulk could kill Stark without ever putting a dent in the armor.[/quote'] Based on what story?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And the scans of Rhino in a fight without his suit would be located where?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Looking for consistency in the treatment of comic book characters is a fool's exercise, especially when they've been around for forty years and have been reinterpreted by *hundreds* of creators.

 

Spidey's particularly problematic, because his power level has been chronically mishandled. Take the Conway ASM run and some of the early Spectacular Spider-Man issues, where he's menaced by the likes of Hammerhead (who, to his credit, can blow up nuclear plants with his head), the Gibbon, the Kangaroo, the (non-powered) Tarantula, and a host of other less than luminary opponents. Could Conway's Spidey beat a Herald of Galactus? Would DeFalco's Spidey (DeFalco, IIRC, wrote the issue and was subsequently Marvel's EiC, which may have influenced depictions of Firelord that postdate the comic) spent a half-dozen pages on the ropes against the Tarantula?

 

Ultimately, you have to cherry pick the versions of the characters you want to use for comparison purposes when you have variations in power level that are this great. You can cite all the issues you want, you can attempt to present data logically, you can measure the pressure exerted by someone with Unearthly strength, but it doesn't really matter: the principle of transitivity doesn't apply to comic book fights, and the capriciousness of author and/or editor makes estimating the outcome of such fights an inexact science at the best of times.

 

That said, Cap beats Batman every fricking time. :-)