shuddemell

Believe me, from experience, me GM'ing HERO does not *sell* HERO books.

 

I finally got my group to play, and they loved the flexibility of it, they loved making characters and building powers, but felt it was too clumsy in actual play (despite us getting 2x to 3x as much "done" in a typical HERO session than in a comparable D20 session...)

 

Seriously - my main issue is I do everything half-assed.  I just do.  I don't prepare as much as I should, and it shows when things get hectic; I forget key NPC abilities, lose track of who has what, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt and that comes across as "this is too easy," etc.  I end up forced to hand-wave things in some cases to get any kind of dramatic tension, as well as to avoid the occasional one-shot attack by an NPC.  And this is not a problem with *the system* it is a problem with *me running it.*  Not knocking myself; just simple admission of the problem.  I'm getting better, and HEROCentral is going to help me get better still.

 

But the funny thing with my group - their main complaint was "it takes too long to do anything."  Yet, we actually got way more accomplished in a typical session.  4 to 6 hours of D20 would be maybe 2 "scenes" or fights.  In HERO, I was having them easily get through three or four combats in a single session.  But they still felt it "took too long" to do things, or "was too hard."  I dunno man.

Ultimately, as a general rule, players are lazy. This at least has been my experience, and it just doesn't amount to physical laziness, it is more intellectual laziness, would rather go with what they know, rather than learn something new, even if it is infinitely better.

My experience is the opposite of Kickstarter's done as side projects: they get made. I have yet to have a Kickstarter fail out on me. That's including a few nearly randomly chosen projects (mostly music related).

 

Our last update was Nov.3 - not quite two months ago. December marks the first month we've gone without an update of some kind. It's the "holiday season" month too, where everything goes crazy for people. At this point - your worry is misplaced and unfounded.

I would hardly say you can call my concern unfounded, as they are nearly a year late (SO FAR) and have not completed the project. Whatever your experience may be, it, like mine is one persons experience. The difference I mention is with professional publishers I have worked for, a delay this long would mean a cancelled contract and no project. I have no doubt that they intend to finish, but my concern is hardly misplaced or unfounded.

In addition, I believe there is a small misconception about my concern. It seems as if my concern is the small bit of money I pledged... it is not. That will neither make or break me, so by itself it isn't that important. My concern is the lack of professionalism shown in kickstarters in general. It is one thing to call it a hobby, but to treat it as a business for profit, certain standards should be maintained that are not presently.

Lucius,

Actually, I would be glad to do just that. However, in some ways I already am, myself and a couple others are already working a quicky adventure, so that is where I will put my efforts for the moment.

Ndreare,

Nice work, this is exactly the type of thing that I was talking about!

Nice work!

There is a big difference between complaining about something being late and repeatedly claiming it will never get made. This won't be my first Kickstarter that was late by more than a year and still delivered.

 

I'm not justifying the lateness. This really is unacceptable. But I'm also not trying to stir up trouvle by convincing people no product is ever coming.

 

EDIT: as to your expectations of professionalism, you understand that this book is not being produced by Hero Games/DOJ, right?

Of course I realize this, but I also don't suppose that anyone running a business or engaging in business shouldn't be expected to be professional.  I never said it wasn't going to get made, I suggested that if it was a professional publishing house that these kinds of delays would likely mean it would never happen, and had I known that this was a second job/hobby I probably would not have backed it, because it is likely that it will never get made. I truly hope it does get made, I still think it a worthwhile project, I just have lost any hope of it happening before I pass the half century mark. I also realize the risk with Kickstarter in general that this may happen. I knew that and wouldn't seek legal remedy because of it. However, that being said, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to feel let down and disappointed that a supposed commercial venture is treated as a hobby/second job. At least armed with that information, I could have made a more informed choice about where to place my hard earned money.

I'm sure they all heard you. That you regard your proposal as logical doesn't mean anyone else considers it appealing. Or workable, for that matter. Someone would have to organize and run the contest, and the participants would have to agree to the conditions and voting methods, and then there would have to be a project manager for a committed working group. So, first up, who is going to do all of that work? And, are we going to have a contest and vote to select the contest-runner? It would be just as easy for someone with a good idea to make a setting proposal and ask "who wants to help?" After all, this is a matter of someone having a vision and the desire to make it so. Odds are, there are only a few such people out there. Also, I'm not sure what a contest would accomplish. After all, the setting would ultimately be a licensed third-party setting rather than an official company sponsored one. At that point, why have a contest at all? Even if we were to do so and someone were to win, there is nothing from stopping the "losers" from forging ahead and publishing as well!A

Actually it would be great if everyone that had a setting did publish it. I know that however won't happen. As far as the work goes, that was the point in collaboration, and I am willing to do some of it. Whether it is appealing or not, well that is why I pitched the idea. I just feel that it is too easy to get mired in discussions of minutia to the point that no progress will ever be made toward something. Also, if I take your point of view of what's the point? Who will do the work? Reductio ad absurdam tells me to not bother trying to bolster Fantasy Hero at all, after all it will be a thankless job... Actually, this point really encapsulates both the strengths and weaknesses of Hero as a system as well. There are usually half a dozen ways to do things in Hero.. and if you ask the board you get a dozen different ways.. which is expected.. the real problem is everyone has their way, and for them it is the BEST way. That isn't a feasible viewpoint for a coop project. So, my point of view was simply to allow those that wish to, to present their way and see what stellar ideas come up. I don't really think being "official" or not is a deal breaker anyway, since the whole point would be to stimulate the new players to try Hero out. So take this idea with a grain of salt... because I am quickly beginning to see the backflow of naysaying becoming untenable.

You say you work in print professionally, but do you work with essentially first time authors who are working their writing in around a busy career and family life?

Not presently, but I have in the past... In addition it is really immaterial, because if they are doing it as a hobby and a second job, they should factor that into their schedule. I understand missed deadlines and all, but we are talking about a year or more, so that explanation, though understandable should have been factored into the equation. This is exactly what I mean about professionalism... if you are not a professional writer/publisher/graphic artist... fine, tell everyone so there are no expectations. I probably would NOT back a project by someone that was in that position due to the likelihood that I would never get it. It is sad, but my funds and time are limited just like theirs. BTW, I manage a career, family life and am finishing my degree in Chemistry as we speak, so I understand all these pressures, but I am still expected to do all these things to a schedule without excuse.

Yeah, as another backer of what seemed like a good project to support hero, I am disappointed with the whole handling of this. I expected a level of professionalism with regard to such public projects associated with Kickstarter. And overall I have not been too disappointed, but it is obvious from this and others that there is NO guarantee that people presenting as professionals actually are and obviously their optimism about their projects certainly lends them to a very optimistic appraisals of their timelines. I work in print professionally, so I really do know what it takes to make a book happen, and if this was going to happen, it already would have. I don't doubt the good faith of the people working on this, but though faith can move mountains, it won't beat reality no matter the intent.

Once again folks, at this point I will restate... This is why I suggested a contest... That way everyone presents their ideas about a Fantasy integrated into a setting... and then the best is chosen. The way this is going, there will NEVER be a consensus as to which method is best or should even be used. It will be a constant push and pull of each individuals preferences and predilections... and since I believe magic system, et al is essential to the look and feel of the setting, this would probably be an insurmountable roadblock to any collaborative project. Though I like the idea of everyone pitching ideas to get the best, BEST is subjective and consensus is not possible.

"'Blasphemy?' Before what, 'God?' A God repulsed by the miserable humanity he created in his own image? I will not be shackled by the failures of your God. The only 'blasphemy' is to wallow in insignificance! I have taken the refuse of your God's failures, and I have triumphed!"
—Herbert West, Bride of Re-Animator.

By the way, Dr. Evil... right on!

Any assistance I can provide, I would be glad to do so, though my skills are mostly useful for print and web work (graphic designer and prepress tech)...

I agree that the first thing we should do is a "Setting Free" Book (perhaps we can do a few few "Setting Free" Adventures/Books/etc).  Later, perhaps, we could tie in to a particular setting.

 

Now...about making money.  I thought we we're going to make Million$ here?  Don't Game Companies rake in Billion$? At least that's what I read on the internet. [/sarcasm]

 

Really though...the "Profit" margin comes from expanding the community...I've been gaming since 1975 and been playing Champions since the early days, so call this giving something back (This doesn't make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination...just old ).

 

Peace

 

~ N

Agreed, I have been in it since '78 and it certainly is a different beast. Likewise, I am just wanting to expand the community (and as a by product) finding new Hero gamers to game with... Likewise, in regard to the ideas about magic systems, I can post a pdf of the one I use in my High Fantasy Campaign if anyone cares to see what I do with it, but once again, I think simpler in this case is better.

Been out of pocket for the last couple of days. The brainstorming seems like it is proceeding quite nicely, however I would suggest that perhaps the first thing would be a setting neutral starting adventure. Rather than worry so much about licensing at first, it would be easier to avoid that and come up with a simple quick start. It could be tied into TA or other thing later, but to avoid licensing issues, et al, it seems easier to leave it neutral. Otherwise there are some good ideas, and hopefully something will gel pretty quickly. Any further ideas on division of labor, et al? Really, in my mind, is to let people know that Hero can do "D&D" style, as well as any others. Once the hook is set, well then is when we can begin to reel them in. From a copyright point of view, we may be able to avoid any major issues if the first thing we do is offered for FREE. I never anticipated or wanted to profit, except in the sense of creating a much larger Hero community...

Gather together.  Then, as for "Setting," decide on exactly what we want to do.  I wouldn't go willy-nilly/hog-wild.  We need to be on the same sheet-of-music, otherwise we'll be spinning our wheels.

 

I work on a PC, but nowadays's that isn't as much of an issue as far as cross-platform comparability goes.

 

 

~ N

The only real issue with cross-platform will be fonts. Some don't cross the threshold well, but otherwise, yeah no real problems there. As far as where we work.... I would suggest here until a rough framework of people and "duties" is hashed out, and then via email and perhaps keeping live files in a dropbox account all the people involved have access to. This seems to be the easiest way considering the obvious separation of time, location and duties this entails.

Also, please everyone put out the call here on Hero, because I think we should get as much input as possible. There are some incredibly inventive and talented people on here, and their input will be invaluable to a project such as this.

Agreed.  Count me in.

 

I suspect that we'll have people filling many different "Jobs."

 

I can do Creative Writing, Layout/Design, Typesetting, PDF Creation, Graphics (To an extent - I have issues w/hand art due to physical disabilities )  For software I have Adobe CS2/InDesign2 & Corel6. For word processing I use LiberOffice.

 

We can decide on exactly what the first project should be as we get a team together: Specific Genre, Established Setting (Legality with Hero Games??), What Exactly (Full Setting, Adventure, etc), and more.  For now, I'd suggest getting a team together and perhaps keeping our ambitions realistic -- start small at first, then work on a larger project(s) as we grow/get comfortable doing this sort of thing.

 

Peace.

 

 

~ N

Good, I have access to Adobe CC and every version before that. I typically do all my text work in InDesign, though I also have access to MS word and virtually any other DTP or GA program. Also, I do all my work in the Mac OS, though I can transliterate, etc if need be. I think the first thing to be determined is if we want to have people pitch settings first (which seems the natural order) or build pieces willy-nilly and then shoe horn them in.

Okay, at this point, it might be useful to get some commitment from folks concerning particular tasks, etc. For myself aside from "creative" work, I can do typsetting, graphics creation, layout, PDF and Ebook creation, as well as some web/IT tasks. Another thought occurred to me, that we may actually want to build a website to better facillitate the process of tracking and coordinating this project.

This is one of the reasons I think that Vampire the Masquerade (And the other WoD settings) did so well (and still have a following).  You could open the book, follow a relatively easy to follow character creation, and in a pretty short time have a completed character.  I know, comparing any WW product to Hero is like comparing Apples & Oranges, but they were "out of the box playable."

 

So, create the writeups to be easily understood without being overly "Rules Lawyerish."

 

 

Tool Kitting:  I'd keep it to a minimum and away from the initial writeups -- say in the back of the book -- for when the players want to read about it.  Don't force it on them...let them read it when they are ready.

 

Prebuilds: Might I suggest using something akin to "Templates" in a step-by-step process to build characters?  This would allow players to build their characters while also learning a little about the game at the same time. 

 

Examples:

Step 1) What Race are You? (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Wookie, Ewok, Eldar, etc...). 

Step 2) What happened to You during You're Childhood? (Wonderful Education, Born into a Peasant Family, Born with a Silver Spoon in Mouth, War Orphan, Orphan, etc).

Step 3) What happened to You during You're Adolescence? (Apprenticed to a Craftsman, Ran Away From Home, Kidnapped!, Street Rat, Young Noble).

Step 4) What do You do as an Adult? (Soldier, Politician, Hacker, Spacer, Bum, etc).

Step 5) Divide up You're Bonus Character Points.

 

Note that each of the above Steps would be a little more involved, in that they would across the board add to the Characteristics  of the Character at each Step.  Also, each Step would cost the same (Step 1 costs V, Step 2, costs W, Step 3 Costs X, etc; -- and yes, would take some work to balance each of them...), in order to keep the final cost "balanced."  Various Complications could/should also be included at each step for Player's to choose from.  And of course, each of the Steps should include a well thought out bit of Flavor Text.

 

I know this is taking people by the hand, but it's a teaching method.

 

 

~ M

Yeah, I think is the general path this should take, a pretty straightforward "flow-chart" to a character... If you make characters easy to build, you've beaten at least half of the complaints I have ever heard concerning Hero. A set of career paths, some racial backgrounds, starting gear packages.. that sort of thing goes a long way towards getting the unwashed masses playing, at least in my opinion.

Yeah, actually the term dumbed down really isn't so much what I meant. I guess what I mean is to not necessarily show the nuts and bolts under the hood, but rather use evocative "flavor" text to capture the feel. At first anyway, players don't necessarily need or want to know how it works, but rather just what it does in plain english.

What the fan base can do is produce material that supports the products the company produces.  there's nothing stopping us from producing modules ourselves and putting them online for all hero fans to use.  we might even be able to convince hero games to host such a service and link it here (maybe under the resources button).  no need for something like digital hero...just allow fans to produce content and upload it to the site and its free for all to peruse.  word of mouth will get around about the contributions that are worthy and with the nature of the hero system and the enthusiasm and imagination of its fan base, i'm certain something like that would prove to be a rousing success.

Yes, obviously this would be ideal. However, from what I have seen, the settings offered for Fantasy Hero have not been updated for 6th Edition, and unfortunately they aren't particularly well recieved overall, in my experience. I do think either a website or a linked thread to a Grimoire, Equipment, Bestiary, et al, would work well tied to one of the existing settings. However, this may involve some copyright issues we would have to work out with the powers that be, and since none of the previous offerings have been particularly evocative to gamers at large, it may be wiser to retool and create a fan based option of what we collectively love about hero. My personal opinion is that though I have liked some of the company offerings for Fantasy Hero, they may be a too "Hero" approach at first, and maybe we need to (excuse the term) dumb it down for new folks, because likelihood is, the vast majority of tinkering will be done by the ref, and not by the players.

I like the idea of a contest for new HERO System settings. If done, it should be made public, so we get non-forum input.

Right on Narf! I think that is exactly the ticket, perhaps run it as a Hero Board contest at first, and narrow down to say half a dozen, and then go public with it to do the final winnowing. I think this may be the only way we can effectively get an idea that enough people are on board with to make a run at actually popularizing Fantasy Hero. I am not sure the exact details of crowdsource as opposed to say a kickstarter, but actually, at first anyway, it would be all donation. That is people willing to do it would do it without expectation of pay, et al. Since it would be peer review, hopefully enough viewpoints and perspectives would guide us in a popular and ultimately profitable direction.

It occurs to me, that maybe an idea to get a fantasy setting rolling is doing something similar to what WOTC did ( I know, gasp! The Horror!). But perhaps we could have a contest like they did to launch Eberron. Have anyone that wishes pitch their own setting and have all the folks here select one and then provide community support to make it happen. Obviously, this would require some coordination.. but on the positive side it would be of no cost to hero until it was ready to publish. I believe we have enough talented and imaginative folks here that we could really do something worthwhile with just a little sweat from our brows, and more to the point help Fantasy Hero flourish. It could be something that was added to Dungeon Hero (or whatever it ends up being called) or even given as a free PDF. I myself work as a professional graphic designer, typesetter and prepress technician and would be glad to donate some of my time for such a project.

It seems to me that I often see discussions of what can be done, and lots of time is spent reading and writing about it to no avail. Maybe that energy would be better used actually doing something, even if it failed, it would certainly feel more satisfying than lamenting the current state of Hero.

Probably because it seems more math intensive to some people. Just a guess though.

Not sure why Star Hero is so chunky: Fantasy Hero is longer and only about 1/3 that size.  More pictures, maybe?

 

I have not used it myself, but you could try something like this:

 

http://compress.smallpdf.com/

 

I just did a Google search under PDF compression

If you have a full version of acrobat, you can resave it as an optimized pdf and ofttimes it will get way smaller, plus you control how low res the pics go, etc.

Tank armour will be hardened anyway, so AP is ignored, and a sniper rifle should never be built in such a way that it can pop a cap through tank armour (i.e. with multiple levels of AP to overcome hardening).  You are usually better off looking at build before changing any of the rules.

 

Presumably you want an AP round to be more effective than a normal round against personal armour, otherwise there is no point to it, really.  The same bullet will not go through tank armour if the bullet and tank armour are built the right way.  In fact I'd probably build most tank armour to include Damage Negation vs small arms fire, which prevents you from having to have ridiculously high defences overall.  Damage Negation basically ignores AP in any event.

 

I appreciate that is just one example that you give, but it seems to me that you can do what you want with good campaign design rather than a new set of tools.

True enough, the initial question prompted me to give an answer based on what we USED to do, or did at one point in a campaign. Presently, I don't even use AP, and prefer penetrating. Also, yeah, a Tank wasn't the best example, but the point was made nonetheless....