shuddemell

Count me in. I have all your previous releases and look forward to this as well. Keep up the good work!

Interesting take on this conundrum overall, though I honestly think it is something of a gordian knot. Due to the fact that D&D & Pathfinder represent the lowest common denominator here, the likelihood of pulling a current gamer, much less a casual one to a "fringe" system is staggeringly low from my point of view. Even if Hero were able to license the Middle Earth setting, I doubt you would pull a ton of gamers. I think the reality here is that though Hero is a great system, the amount of work required goes beyond what most people are willing to put into a hobby these days. That is why you don't see as many settings as Savage Worlds for instance, the amount of work to make a good setting is considerably higher for Hero than most games. And though there are some third party creators out there doing excellent work, and least a few of them want to be paid for their labors (rightly so) and as such, focus their efforts on the system(s) that are likely to pay off. I have had many gaming groups over the years, and the vast majority of those I am still in contact with no longer play Hero. Not because it isn't a great system, but because there are easier ones out there. A good portion of them even play M&M because it is easier, and doesn't have as much math. So I think in general, getting Hero to the mainstream is tilting at windmills. 

ZSlane has it right, in that a unique, proprietary setting would be the best hook, but even that would require advertising and media beyond the budget of a small company. Really, MHI was a good shot at getting a more mainstream setting in place and leveraging it for players, and though it has been doing well by Hero's standards, I doubt it has made a great dent in players of any other more popular system.

The notion that a streamlined presentation and a rich toolbox are mutually exclusive is a false dichotomy. It is an alarming dichotomy only if the entire brand is expressed in a single book. That shouldn't be the case.

 

There should always be the equivalent to 6E1/6E2 or the BBB for the grognards. I even like the idea of an entire core library like the 6e one, even though the marketplace seems to have convinced Hero Games that it isn't a worthwhile product scheme. But once the core system document is birthed, there ought to be product lines built upon it that provide newcomer-friendly entry points into the system, as well as rich campaign settings that appeal to the vast ocean of non-hardcore-DIY roleplayers out there.

Agreed. I think maybe I was unclear what I meant by losing grognards. I don't mean you would lose them as players and gms, but rather would probably not make many sells from them on basic stuff geared to the newbies. And ultimately as a business, that is what it is about. I don't know if enough sales of CC were made to truly call it a success, but I would wager that is how many new players you would need to attract to even make such a retool a going concern. More importantly, what you suggest doing, certainly could be made with the sixth edition rules without requiring a 7th edition. Which I would heartily applaud and support.

...

 

What happened to that? are we now so lazy or require instant gratifcation that gamers are unwilling to put the work in to get the rewards that awaits?

I think that is exactly it. So many of the newer gamers are used to having everything served on a platter, that they don't wan't to do any of the cooking themselves. It is a byproduct of our fast-food society. This, in a nutshell, is why I don't believe Hero will ever be popular as a mainstream system. I personally love Hero for the ability to craft things to my liking, but that is an old attitude requiring work and dedication, and most younger players cannot be bothered to put in that effort. You are right in that, in most cases, in the 70's and 80's at least, we had no choice but to flesh out the rules... We were breaking new ground, and the creativity of it made it a labor of love for a lot of us. It just doesn't seem to be that way anymore. I even see it in my current profession... there are very few true craftsmen left in printing, everything has become quick turn work with little art to it. 

As far as repurposing presentation, I think that indeed Hero would benefit from it in terms of clarity... but would it sell more? I doubt it, because you probably won't attract enough newbies to counteract the grognards you lose... 

Even now, I would say presentation wise, Hero is presented about as well as possible without changing its toolbox aspect, and if you do change that... you lose my interest.

Wow, that would be a long list...

Fantasy Hero ( all veins, that is High, Low, and S&S - ported a few specific campaigns... A Thieve's World setting, Cimmeria, and then a lot of generic sandbox games)

Star Hero (Ported a Lensman, played in a Star Wars port for a short time, A Fringeworthy spin-off, and am planning a WH40K port eventually)

Supers (All homebrew universes)

Wu Xiu

Westerns (Always wanted to do a horror western - but never did)

Horror (COC primarily, though I did try and use a Chill module back in the day)

A Shadowrun port

A "Musketeer" port with ritual magic

And a Espionage/Spy thing ala James Bond...

Those are the ones I can think of off-hand, more will probably come to me.

I have been following this thread for awhile, and all of these arguments seem strikingly similar to the ones put forth during the inception of CC. I sincerely wonder whether there will ever be a 7th anyway, since for all intents and purposes it is a niche market within a niche market. I used to have high hopes that gamers could be brought around to see the strengths of Hero, no matter what their genre of choice, but I don't think it likely. I would be curious to know what share of the market percentage Hero actually does command... if it is greater than a tenth of a percent, I would consider eating my hat... 

That being said, I too mainly use Hero for Fantasy, though I do supers once in a while, and like the ability to do whatever I want genre-wise, and I suspect a lot of us do. I just doubt that any of the tweaks mentioned would actually get new players. If we are talking about supporting the current fan base, then these suggestions are valid. I personally agree with Old Man et al. that strength and flight are under-costed and should be re-evaluated based on the Heroic paradigm. I suspect that is the reason that flight only usable on a surface became the de facto standard for modeling super speed running. 

My final question, and the crux of the matter to me, is would the system as a whole be served by worrying about a new version? Yes, I know this is pure speculation for entertainment purposes, but I see so much "obsession" over a new set of rules distracting from folks actually putting out supplements, campaigns, worlds, etc. for the current system, and wouldn't that be a better use of this energy?

Here's one from left field .... "Nate & Hayes"

That's great to read!

Ditto!

Look has a huge bearing on how people react to something. Changing the presentation will have an impact for a lot of people if it can inspire people to actually want to play the game and right now this game does the exact opposite.

 

You can have the same identical rules in a new edition but if that new edition had better layout, better art, and was molded into a really cool campaign world that ISN'T Champions because that world is just not exciting anymore (It's a Marvel clone, everybody knows it and why play in Champions when people would rather play in Marvel?) and that would at least garner a few people out there who would take another look at the game.

 

The rules first, rules only, toolkit style of writing for this game is what does this game in on the whole. Changing this impression, with GOOD art, full color campaign setting worlds that shows off how cool this game really is... getting a well established game writer/designer involved on this would also help, someone with some recognition for being known to create cool game settings. That would help also.

 

Keeping it how it is now will always relegate this game to the bottom of the list and frankly it's sad that there are some fans of this game that would rather keep it at the bottom instead of wanting to see it become better and more used.

Agreed, but who has the funds to bankroll this? I don't so much think mechanics need to change, but impression certainly should... but practically speaking I don't find it feasible. Please prove me wrong.

Ultimately, being a toolkit is going to keep it a minority system, just because of the work required to set up your own campaign. Rewarding for those of us who like that sort of thing... not so much the general gaming audience.

I too utilize GURPS sourcebooks for campaigns I run in HERO.  Most notably the Space Atlas books for my Star Hero campaign.  My problem with GURPS is that it's all over the place with its optional rules.  HERO has a lot more internal consistency and thus, much easier to make "on-the-spot" rulings in HERO.  And HERO is a lot better balanced in regard to the point cost of powers than GURPS is.  With Superpowers, Magic, Psionics and Cybernetics all using completely different rules to purchase and utilize, it's a lot easier to learn how powers work in HERO and to apply them to various situations than to remember everything you have available to you in GURPS.

 

The GURPS Martial Arts book is pretty good though.  Not quite as good as Ninja Hero/UMA, but quite good.  I was impressed with it.

Exactly!

Lets see, 4e divorced the point cost of stats from the 3d6 bell curve, added a horrible setting including an equally horrible retcon to Dai Blackthorne, removed the starter adventures, and added good power rules and slightly better organization in full color books with cheap artwork that somehow managed to look worse than when the books were in black and white (The colouring in my copy is printed almost a half inch farther to the right than the line art  ). Oh, and they scaled up the amount of Disadvantages a character can take, even though having more character points doesn't substantially increase the amount of disads that can effectively be brought up in play without actively screwing the characters over.

 

Nope. 4e is still worse than 3e Revised. If I ever play GURPS again I'll just borrow the 4e power rules and play 3e.

 

PS. GURPS probably feels patched together because 90% of the rules are entirely optional, labeled as such, and most of them are grouped up into their own sections of the rulebook depending on what kind of optional rule it is.

Yeah, could be that, it always seemed like they made rules to deal with corner cases rather than getting a rule that worked for most everything to me... Last version I actually played was 3ER so I can't say anything about how 4 plays, just that it was better organized than before.

GURPS is an excellent system, especially the 4th which fixed the big problem of having all the rules spread all over the place. Their sourcebooks are excellent (I use them for campaigns I run or plan in Hero). I personally just the like the tight integrity of the Hero System. Sometimes (less so in the 4th Ed) GURPS feels patched together to me.

At times the skills in Hero can be a bit narrow (e.g., Bugging / Security Systems / Electronics / Systems Operations), are there some optional rules somewhere to broaden or narrow the skill list for diffferent settings?  (E.g., MnM had similar variations from its base list in a gamemaster supplement.)

The Hero System Skills Book will cover a lot of options regarding skills and their implementation in your campaign. I believe the 6th Edition of this book recently was made available at Lulu (someone correct me if I got the site wrong)... It will actually be my next purchase.

What might atract them is good artwork. For us old timers, haven't we seen that same piece of art 500 times before?

Definitely would be nice to have a fresh presentation with new art. The real problem with that is the bankroll needed to get good professional quality art, and it should be made for setting material rather than the ruleset. I have (maybe should say had) high hopes for Narosia, but only time will tell.

I have to be honest.  I think 6th Edition is damn near perfect, especially with the Advanced Player's Guides.  It eliminates some of the things I didn't care for with previous editions (e.g. figured characteristics).  I can't really think of much that I would change: a few small things here and there at most (e.g. Strength scaling, phased based movement), nothing big.  Change too much, it wouldn't be Hero System anymore.  I don't have a problem with how big the book is or how it is written, especially since it is well organized and the everything is easy to find.  I don't mind a rule book reading like a tech manual or whatever other derisive description people come up with.  If I want evocative, I'll read a fiction novel or watch a movie.  I don't mind rules reading like rules.  I plan to learn the game not take it out on a date.  I like how Steve Long gave lots of examples and detail to everything.  I also like some of the repetition.  It is good reinforcement.  I would rather have all the rules and examples there and not need them than to have to chase an answer down because they are not there. The details provide a good frame of reference for when I have to make decisions on the fly.  I almost bought a copy of Champions Complete.  I am glad that I got the pdf instead.  It is pretty useless to me.  At best I would recommend it for some of my players that are a bit lazier as far as reading the rules since it is considerably shorter than 6th Edition.  Seeing the direction that Hero Games is going, I don't think I am the target audience for 7th Edition.  The company seems to be going the way of making less detailed core books and self-contained genre books.  That would be a waste of money for me but I understand that it is an business decision.  I'm just one person.  On the plus side, one less gaming company to spend money on.   

I mostly agree with this, the presentation is mainly what MIGHT draw more players though, so that could be an area where a new presentation is useful. As far as changing the rules to suit those who want it dumbed down or changed to support a particular like or dislike, I would say, just don't use that tool rather than writing a new book. As I have said before, I honestly don't see HERO as the type of game that will attract a whole lot of new players. In my experience, like with most hobbies, 90% are lazy and will do the easiest, most common (LCD) game, and not bother exploring the other games available. The 10% that do will find HERO if it suits their tastes, changing the system or even the presentation won't change that.

I get the point you are making but my first thought when reading your post was "Playing Batman would still be pretty fun".

 

Only because Batman hangs on to the kryptonite and will use it when the man of steel gets too big for his britches...

If the power construct can be built with the tools at hand, with examples given, why does a totally new power need to be made to accommodate?

Sincerely this, don't fix it if it isn't broken.

Fair enough, though some here might not be, so just pointing that out.

You'll need a magic system, if you're going to have any magic, and I humbly suggest my Fantasy Codex for that

I do as well, it would be an excellent way to get a magic system up and running in no time.

I think my larger, underlying point is, economics and lack of incentives for the established purveyors is not an absolute bar to further experimentation and innovation.

Agreed limited to that issue, however at some point the IP rights would have to be dealt with if it is to be a going economic concern, especially insofar as it would or would not be 7th edition. (It should also be noted that just because you don't ever make money off of it, doesn't mean it wouldn't be a violation of IP rights)

Honestly, one could create an unofficial 7th edition, provided it was 1)labeled as such, 2) recognized as such and 3)distributed freely at no cost. Best case scenario, it's a "market test" for a more official 7th edition, and if successful a deal can be struck to revamp and launch it as official. Hero might not be crazy about letting one post or mention it here, but if you put it on your own site and make no money off it ever, it's pretty hard to justify sending a Cease & Desist letter over what would essentially be "house rules" posted on someone's web site for free.

I think this is far afield and the suggestion is a little bit beyond anything I would ever suggest doing, it steps on a lot of toes and is essentially defecating where one dines.... careful with this kind of thing.

So, with all of the thoughts about changes to Hero, it does remind of one thing that is great about Hero, separate and apart from whichever particular edition you might prefer. That is the Hero community. Here we have overall one of the most helpful groups of players, gms and grognards of any board I have seen. Perhaps, that should factor in to how we promote and teach Hero. If it were more prominent and were more obvious to the newbies, perhaps they would feel less lost with Hero. I know me personally, I don't get the opportunity to run Hero much anymore (or play for that matter), but I certainly would be glad to help any person that needs character building, world building, or rules help at many point, and I have seen virtually everyone on this board do the same. Maybe if the newbies were more aware of this support system it might go a long way into popularizing Hero. Most of the other boards are downright hostile (especially to Hero) and getting useful help is much more difficult. This is one of the best things about Hero I have discovered in recent memory, the great, helpful and generally plain nice people involved with the system. We all have questions or conundrums at one time or another, and having a place to clarify and refine ideas is invaluable.
 

So, Stacie, not only do I wish you the greatest luck possible, I would be willing to help in any way I can, as are so many people on this board, and maybe just maybe that is our true super power.

Yeah, I think the idea that only "story-telling" systems are concerned with the narrative ludicrous, but I also understand the trend that players want and need more control of the narrative. That said, with action points, I am very stingy handing them out, and typically only give them out for exceptional in character play.

Ultimately, if the gm is doing their job, then the narrative will be the most important thing and a cooperative relationship with the players is essential, rather than a competitive one.

Martial Arts are based on a system developed by Aaron Allston. That system doesn't really have any mechanics in common with the rest of the toolbox. It would be nice to see a system that would build martial maneuvers based on the costs of Blast (aka hand to hand attack) and Combat Skill levels. The maneuvers would all end up costing more, but that might not be a bad thing. Martial arts are a bit cheap for what they give a character.

Yeah, there are some problems with system continuity with regards Martial Arts for sure. Overall, I like the feel of the system though, and they work pretty well for us. The real problem with them is at low point totals they can be particularly cost effective, but the higher you go in character points, the less useful they become. Maybe this is right, but sometimes it doesn't seem so.

I am not certain I have ever played a "Storytelling" game per se, at least not the rulesets mentioned, but to us the story always was important. I think the trend these days is to give players a little more license on the direction the narrative takes. I see this with positives and negatives. One the biggest I have run into is some people heavily invested in the story idea believe that they should control the story entirely at the expense of other players and gamemaster. This is of course, an extreme. I like the idea of Hero Points in that you can use them to compensate for really bad dumb luck and maybe to give a subtle nudge to the narrative. That being said, I am very stingy in handing them out. I start everyone with a 1/2d6 of points, but they only get replacements when they do something that really pushes the narrative in an enjoyable direction, as determined by the table as a whole, or their in character play is stellar for some particular reason. They are useful, but in my opinion, must be used very sparingly.