chariot

So I'm coming to DC after years of 4th ed Champions with heroes who can take lots of shots and keep going.

Playtesting a new DC campaign with some players who are new to the Hero System... and well, frankly I am stymied.

I don't see how, as GM, to keep these people alive without constantly fudging every dice roll. The amount of damage flung around, with the limited armor is truly frightening. Many times a single shot will bring a character down (which is fine for the bad guys).

How do other GM's deal with this?

The campaign style is still pretty nebulous, but the closest I can describe it is a Daredevil type with some animated series elements.

Re: HERO Hall of Fame?

For some reason, one of my favorites has always been The Nefarious Doctor Meriwhether. Damned if I can remember the Doc's first name, though. He was a kinda 4-color villain in a more Iron Age world. He worked for the (supposedly) deceased father of one of the PC's; built that PC's original battle-suti, and then used his knowledge of the suits capabilities and weaknesses to become a thorn in the PC's side for several adventures.

Doc Meriwhether was really a plot device. I knew the PC was going to want to change his character, as I built his first one for him as a way to get him into the game. So, after being a royal pain for several months, an epic battle ensued during which the PC's battle suit was destroyed.

Once the PC returned from his "radiation accident", we had had so much fun with the Doc, that he had to come back. Can't quite remember what finally became of the Doc... but he may come back to haunt my new PC's some time soon.

I have a few more that I'll probably post later on.

Re: The Ultimate Mystic: Good, Bad, or what?

Exactly, Lord Liaden.

I remember it being worse, but that's hindsight for you. I also seem to remember that those sorts of remarks were NOT restricted to that section of the document.

BUT! Enough said.

I think my question has been answered: these sorts of things are NOT included in Mr Shomshak's 5th Ed work. Good. Because I like his work, and will be buying it soon, I'm sure.

Re: The Ultimate Mystic: Good, Bad, or what?

If you worship Skarn then you are involved in an imaginary religion. If you worship Odin then you are involved in a "real" one. That's for you to decide. In any event it's a comic-based game and I don't expect people to be any more upset about how religion is handled in the Champions universe than they are with how it's handled in the Marvel or DC universes. If you can read The Mighy Thor and not get offended then you can read The Mystic World and not get offended too.

Point taken, and to be clear I have not remarked on the current version as I do not yet own it. But I feel that my concerns are valid: I believe that authorial bias and snide remarks have no place in a HERO supplement. I wanted to know if the new version was free of these things before I spent my money on it.

Frankly, I am impressed with Dean's work. His breadth of knowledge is astounding, and his grasp of HERO rules equally adroit. I felt that USM was marred by the comments, and the author's work was seriously degraded by those things that should have been removed by an editor. So, I guess my real problem is with the previous editor and not the author. It is the editor's job to see that those type of things do not make it into print.

Mr Shomshak is absolutely entitled to his own opinion; honestly think that I'd like and get along with the fellow were we to meet. However, his personal opinions have no place in a supplement; especially when they are plainly derogatory.

Re: The Ultimate Mystic: Good, Bad, or what?

I think some people are just offended by the idea that Dean treats "real" religions the same way he treats imaginary ones. Some people can't seem to differentiate between the imaginary Champions Universe and the one they live in.

I would have to disagree, even though I wanted to put an end to this -- Dean made direct, derogatory remarks in the previous version of this book. They were offensive, as is your remark about "imaginary" religions, provided I take your tone correctly. My faith is as real as any one you might or might not espouse.

Re: The Ultimate Mystic: Good, Bad, or what?

Mostly remarks disparaging real-world magic and people who believe in it' date=' in the "A Personal Disclaimer" section of the Introduction. I have to admit that some of it is rather nasty, and if any type of magic was part of my belief system I would have been offended by it.[/quote']

 

Officially halting the flogging of a dead horse here. suffice it to say that I WAS offended, and still am to this day apparently.

 

Strange thing, I enjoyed the author's other work...so I do have high hopes for this one.

Re: The Ultimate Mystic: Good, Bad, or what?

And the "ultimate" question for owners of the previous "Ultimate Super Mage"... is it free of authorial bias and snide remarks?

//edit: as someone who has publicly denounced people who can not spell or proof-read their own work, I had to fix my mis-spelling.

wow...

This was interesting.

What a wonderful rebuttal from Scott.

Certainly amazing that a thread so obviously polarized and politically charged could stay above the level of name calling (got to admit, I was tempted to fling around a few choice epithets while reading).

The original hypothesis is extremely 4 color, even if it does blend in some real world theory. Scott's rebuttal is far more Iron age, and relies more on real world practicalities than theory. In essence, the two best comments in the thread (the topic starter and the wonderful rebuttal) are at complete odds with each other -- they exist in different worlds. One is far too simplistic to be real, but would make for a wonderfully entertaining story (the true goal of our shared obsession, no?); the other, wonderfully written and reflective of a more real-world take on the hypothesis. One left, one right...

Originally posted by Steve Long

I remember the sections you're talking about. I don't practice magic, and I don't go to church. Nevertheless, I found them offensive and/or nonsensical.

I have no objection to publishing something others consider "offensive" if it's worth publishing -- there's a reason Andy jokingly refers to me as "the most insensitive man in gaming." But I see absolutely no reason to offend people gratuitously, or for authors to express personal opinions about sensitive subjects in gaming supplements. It's OK to express directly relevant opinions -- witness the FH bibliography -- but social and political commentary I'd generally lump into the unnecessary category.

Steve,

thanks very much for your reply. I am very encouraged by this. Dean wrote some tremendous stuff in USM, there is no doubt. I felt that it should have had a stronger editorial hand. To be honest, I didn't buy another Hero product after that... until DOJ took over and FRED came out.

Re: Re: I actually started to read CU, and...

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I myself have Ultimate Super Mage, Chariot. I think I can remember the passages that you're alluding to, and I can understand why that might offend you if you practice magick yourself. Those comments probably do reflect the scepticism most people feel about it, although to be fair I think Dean Shomshak was referring more to the kind of flashy magic depicted in movies and novels. Still, I'd advise you not to let Dean's remarks spoil your enjoyment of USM, which I for one found to be a very interesting and useful supplement for super-magic campaigns. Many of Harlan Ellison's published remarks have convinced me that he's an arrogant, opinionated martinet, but I still think he writes good fiction. [/qUOTE]

 

Well, I am encouraged that I am not alone in being able to identify those passages. I was particularly offended because the rest of the material was so good. He did his homework. And Harlan is an arrogant, opinionated left-wing nut. But he is still one of my favorite authors.

Re: Re: What am I missing... the 5th ED Champions...

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Me too - but I have the black dice. The itty bitty blue ones were a great disappointment to another player who bought later.

Itty bitty blue dice? Mine are not itty bitty... they are good size. Probably the same size as your black ones. Maybe they had different colors...

Ahh, Flare and Marksman... the good old days. Who else was there? I only vaguely remember...wasn't there a "Demonic" guy with green skin and wings?

I actually started to read CU, and...

I'm enjoying it.

Someone's advice here was correct, and I did need to look at it as a blank slate. I wasn't really expecting that. But the world history is pretty cool. And while the Champions may be more 4 color than I can stomach, I would say that the world is not necessarily so.

I have to retract my comment about Champions being corny. Its not the genre material that is corny (except some of the archtypes, and that is unavoidable), it is the Champions themselves that I find corny. And I guess it is their rigid molds that I find so corny. Not that many of my heroes did not fall into stereotypes... but they (and the villains in the book) just seem so... I don't know.

I will continue my work with CU and hope that I find more that I like.

I must, however, insert a strong personal comment here. I followed Lord Lidian's (sp?) advice and checked out some of the upcoming products. Looks good, except... did anyone else out there buy Ultimate Supermage and get turned off by the editorial asides by the author about RL practioners of magick? I was so unbelievably enraged by the snide remarks and outright insults that were slung, that I swore I would never buy another supplement penned by that author. Now I see he's been tapped to write The Mystic World and Vibora Bay, the two supplements I am most interested in... particulary because I am a RL practioner of magick.

If I had the supplement in front of me, I'd quote some of the passages... alas, I do not. But I remember my feelings well to this day. These editorial feelings had no business being in the supplement.

So I can blame Mr Long for Witchcraft, can I?

I guess I am still not too sure what my complaints are. Maybe I'm just experienceing some bitter nostalgia, and trying to find my way around this new world.

I certainly don't miss the BBB's hero team... but right now I am missing so much I enjoyed from 4th ED. I loved the Mutant File, High-Tech Enemies and Mystic Masters. So much of what I've learned about the CU has been seemingly written out of existence. Not that I ever played in the old CU, mind you... my own world was quite a bit darker, and much more magical.

Didn't everybody feel the same way when Obi-Wan told us you could measure someone's ability to control the Force by doing a blood test?

And perhaps I am just seeing the warts right now, because I am feeling this way. Hornet's origin is really bugging me for some reason. And some of Howler's, too... nitpick, nitpick.

I promise to go forth and actually read some more of CU before I go on.

HERO still rules, even though I love 3rd D&D.

Chariot

First of all, this is not an attack.

Second, I am a fan. I've been playing Champions since before Champions 2 (I still have the original hex map and blue dice that came with the boxed set). I own so many 4th Ed and earlier supplements, I could open a store...

I bought the 5th Ed rules, and enjoyed them. I haven't played them yet, but I have seen many improvements. I bought Champions, glad that Aaron was back. Now I know Aaron is far more 4 Color than I am... but did anyone else think too much of Champions bordered on corny?

I have only had CU and CKC for a few days... and maybe the problem is that I have not given any of this new material enough time; but I'm not impressed. When I took them out of the box and saw that CU was roughly 1/2 the size of CKC, I said: something just doesn't seem right here.

I don't have much to offer in the way of constructive criticism. I am honestly wondering if: 1) I just am an aberration (since so many here seem to really enjoy the new efforts), or 2) I am just really missing some fundamental clue as to what the new Champions and its supplements are all about.

I wish to re-iterate. I am a long-time fan and supporter of Hero in all its incarnations (how many out there own the 6 Issue mini-series featuring the original Champions and DEMON?). And I am not trying to disparage the work done by DOJ. Do I need to give it more time, and look at it all more closely? Or, perhaps, is this just not my flavor of Champions?

chariot