Chuckg

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

Hey, Puckett did some great stuff with her. Dude was bein' sarcastic.

Re: Golden Age Day Jobs

I recall BC owned a flower shop in the retcon mini' date=' Justice League Year One. Was that based on the original or is that what you're talking about?[/quote']

 

I believe it was based on the original. I'm not sure.

Re: Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved

Then I invented another magic item, the Bug Zapper (1 Real Point). Suddenly, anyone who can afford any magic at all can have a room permanently free of vermin.

 

Strikes me that both of those would have long-term social consequences.

A Pyramid article invented a quasi-magical plant for the GURPS Yrth fantasy setting that could be woven into insect-repellent cloaks.

Controlling the harvest and supplies of said plants rapidly became almost as much of a strategic priority as controlling sufficient iron mines and foundries to arm your troops... because the Cloaks Of Keeping My Army's Death Rate From Disease Much Lower Than Normal *were* almost as much a vital material of war as weapons & armor were.

Re: All-New Iron Age Zoo Crew?

I heard that the excuse was nothing more than 'I'm a cat. Therefore, I hate mice.'

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

I'm only saying that we don't know what else Cap might have done' date=' just not to assume that what he did chose was his only choice.[/quote']

 

What other assumption can we make that permits a discussion to exist at all? If we go 'we don't know what Cap might possibly have done, but SURELY he could have done SOMETHING', then we are starting from an assumption -- that Cap will win -- and hypothesizing to fit, instead of starting from the facts (what's on the page) and then testing our hypothesis against it.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

> Well from the point that Cap remarks that IF is holding back, Cap has

> the thought in his head that something is definitely wrong here and at

> that point may no longer fighting with all he's got.

Which is an odd thing to say, 'cause Cap does better in the second half of the fight than he does in the first.

> Also you may be misinterpreting Cap's use of the shield as the

> only thing that keeps him from being pulp. Cap used the shield

> because he had it in hand, Cap had already blocked IF's previous blow

> with his bare hand and may well have been able to dodge the Iron Fist

> Punch.

IF's previous blow != Iron Fist. And you are purely speculating.

> If I'm Cap in this situation and a guy's hand starts crackling with

> energy, my first instinct is to get behind my trusty indestructable

> shield. Just because it is the option he chose, doesn't make it his only

> option in this case.

What else can Cap do, Abort to Desolid? You can't block the Iron Fist the same way Cap blocked Danny's backhand a couple panels ago, you'd simply shatter your arm. The full force of the Iron Fist has sent Iron Man flying completely off the page, and could kill Luke Cage with a single shot. They're fighting in a hallway, besides, so Cap doesn't even have room to jump too high.

Re: Golden Age Day Jobs

Entertainer was actually a popular job for Golden Age heroes. Billy Batson had his radio show' date=' Mandrake and Zatarra both did stage shows, I think Black Canary sung but I'd have to look it up.[/quote']

 

Black Canary owned a flower shop, IIRC. You're thinking of the Black Canary 'homage' on the original Squadron Supreme, who was a nightclub singer before gaining her sonic powers, I think. (And that's well past the GA.)

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

The v1 run of IRON FIST only /went/ fifteen issues... and the fight in Avengers Mansion that I posted the scans of was IRON FIST v1 #12.

BTW, reread my copy. After the scans I posted, the fight ends... Cap gets up (the shield blocked it, of course), and Danny talks Cap down from the mistaken identity thing by simply refusing to fight any longer.

So, definitely stalemate.

I'm going through the rest of my IRON FIST right now, and I have yet to find any Cap/Falcon issue.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Are you saying that' date=' one-on-one, the other great MA's just outclass Cap?[/quote']

 

A few of them, yes. Not all of them.

 

Note that 'I think so-and-so can beat Cap' is *not* the same statement as 'I think anybody can beat Cap'.

 

(add) I will disagree with Sketchpad to this extent -- in pure skill, I put Logan below Cap, and some others. Logan has won a lot of his fights via sheer cockroach durability.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Should we get into how Cap has done one-on-one with Wolvie?

In CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL #8, a copy of which sits within ten feet of my computer terminal at home, they were very evenly matched for several pages, claws vs. shield, until their fight was interrupted by the arrival of the Over-Rider and TESS-One.

Have they had any other fights of note?

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Well' date=' whatever, I don't 'remember it wrong' (more sillyness). My comics all sit in storage untouched in years, I honestly haven't read a series in ten years (except for the restarted Thor and the Busiek/Perez Avengers run), but I can remember that Cap beat Iron Fist. Now do I remember the exact moves they used and such...no, but Cap winning I can remember. Specific details and dialogue no, results yes.[/quote']

 

Jeff, it's going to take more than a vague memory of an issue you admit not having read in years, and can't even guess at the # of, before I will accept the evidence of my own memory as being wrong.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Don't start with the 'not listening to me'' date=' schtick. Jeez. By saying 'nothing' is official with you, it's because you don't seem to be accepting any of Iron Fist's out and out 'jobs' [...']

Actually' date=' no, it's not official enough for me. I accept no guidebooks, handbooks, compilations, websites, or other such fluff. I go by what is in the comics themselves, as those are primary canon, and all others are secondary canon at best.[/quote']

 

How the heck you read this and got 'nothing is official with me' out of it, I want to know.

 

Since you seem to need it very very carefully explained, let me try and get it across again:

 

* I don't accept "handbooks"

* I don't accept websites

* I don't accept 'ranking tables' on websites

* I don't accept anything EXCEPT WHAT IS ACTUALLY PUBLISHED IN THE COMICS THEMSELVES.

 

* (add) I don't accept RPG stats either, unless we're talking about characters who are RPG characters. (i.e. -- I accept Defender's stats as being Defender's, 'cause the dude is *from* an RPG game. I don't accept the stats of a comic book character converted to an RPG, 'cause no two companies ever convert them the same, and I have yet to see a conversion that exactly matched up with its 'parent' character.)

 

Those, I accept.

 

As to why I am not accepting your statement that 'Cap beat Iron Fist straight-up?'

 

Because not only haven't I read it, I've never even *heard* of it, and I know a whole lot about Iron Fist that you don't know, by your own admission. Furthermore, you can't remember exactly where you saw it or when, which makes me doubt that you can remember exactly *what* you saw either.

 

If you can tell me where the comic is, so I can go scrounge a peek at it, I will. Until then, you don't get all your declarative statements taken as simple Gospel. At least I went to the trouble of finding scans to back up mine.

 

Not to mention that I find your "debate" style of accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being ignorant of even the basics about Captain America to be offensive and lacking maturity.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

This is silly. Nothing would be 'official' enough then.

... except, of course, the actual comics themselves.

What's "silly" is your refusal to actually listen to what I am saying.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Scans of a section of the Cap/Iron Fist fight (to which I am referring):

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif26zj.jpg

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif31dn.jpg

http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif43xd.jpg

Note now the internal monologue of Danny specifically makes it plain this is exhausted Iron Fist. (Actually, if you look at the third scan, it's exhausted and so dizzy he can barely stand Iron Fist.) Note also the internal monologue of Cap specifically making it plain that Iron Fist was initially holding back.

Note that even with all the handicaps that Iron Fist is taking, they're stalemating... until the end, where only the Mighty Shield keeps Cap from being pulp.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

I freely give you this one' date=' doesn't change the fact that he has been beaten straight up.[/quote']

 

I ain't believin' this until I see it(*), and in order for me to see it, you'll have to be a little more precise on where I *can* see it other than "it's somewhere in Captain America volume 1." (Seeing as how the v1 run of the CAPTAIN AMERICA comic has, what, over 350 issues?)

 

 

 

 

 

(*) And no, this is not -- that's *NOT* with a capital "NO", for people who refuse to pay attention -- an accusation that you're lying.

 

It's an accusation that I think you're remembering it wrong. i.e. -- that you are mistaken.

 

(And hey, given that you can't remember even *vaguely* what issue # it was, I think I'm not entirely off the rails re: suspecting that your memory of this issue is something less than perfect.)

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

> This is the stupidest statement I've ever seen you make. Seriously. There's

> a part of me that thinks you want to take it back.

Nope, absolutely none. Cap has never beaten Iron Fist that I know about, and therefore I think your statement of Cap supposedly having arsewhipped Iron Fist is wrong. (And given that you can't remember where you read it, I'm wondering if you remembered what you read with any more accuracy.)

But note, all of this is me going 'Jeff, I think you're wrong' not 'Jeff, I think you're lying.'

*sigh*

Man, even when I *TRY* to give people the benefit of the doubt, they still refuse to believe it. Stuff like this makes me bitter and cranky.

> "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist." Is not an opinion, it is

> declarative (obviously).

Well, yes, it is.

But making a declarative statement in opposition to a declarative statement of your own is...?

... me thinking that you're wrong.

Not lying, not deliberately attempting to deceive, not anything insulting -- merely *wrong*. Have you never been wrong in an Internet post before? Do you truly consider it such a mortal insult to be accused of such?

(I mean, God knows people tell me they think I'm wrong all the damn time.)

And I am going 'straight up' with you on this... hell, all of the trouble I get into on these boards is because I don't know any other mode of interaction *but* 'straight-up', i.e., blunt.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

I think Marvel always touted Shang-Chi as being "the world's formost master of martial arts." While at the same time it was said that Captian America was "the world's formost hand to hand combatant."

There is a grave danger in taking narrative hyperbole and interpreting it literally. Stuff like this leads you to believe that Superman hits "with the force of a million H-bombs" (DOOMSDAY: HUNTER/PREY) and that the Ten-Eyed Man is "the most dangerous man alive!" (Silver Age BATMAN comics).

For a more Marvel-oriented example, the Avengers have always been billed as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes!"... and while that statement is true for *some* Avengers line-ups, there have been other Avengers line-ups that could have been singlehandedly schooled by Lockheed the Dragon.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Actually, no, it's not official enough for me. I accept no guidebooks, handbooks, compilations, websites, or other such fluff. I go by what is in the comics themselves, as those are primary canon, and all others are secondary canon at best.

Or to put it in plainer English -- if the index contradicts the actual page content, the page content wins.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Oh' date=' c'mon! Try rereading the statement of yours I quoted again, Chuck.[/quote']

 

What, you mean "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist."? That statement?

 

Pot, kettle, my ***. The one is 'I think you're wrong.' The other is 'I think you're lying.' If you cannot see the difference between the two, then you need to grow up.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

He did get punked by Rom once--who just neutralized his Iron Fist...

Rom? The guy with a magic "turn energy powers off" gun? The guy with a cyborg exoskeleton that can take hits from the Thing? That Rom?

I can kinda figure out how Danny Rand would be kinda screwed against Rom if a) the only thing he has that can hope to dent the robot shell is the Iron Fist and his opponent possesses a gizmo with which to Suppress his Iron Fist multipower slot.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

> Seems you've read a great deal more Iron Fist than me,

Which in a rational universe would mean that I'd be accepted as knowing more about Iron Fist's genuine power levels, feats, and history than you.

Might I recommend the ESSENTIAL IRON FIST collection if you'd like to see more?

> the 20-30 or so stories I've read with him in them don't give him this much

> power, Marvel doesn't seem to 'officially' agree with you, [snip]

The OHOTMU is not officially binding on anything (let alone being at least 20 years out of date!), and the fact that you admit to an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist means only that you have an incomplete knowledge of Iron Fist.

> and were this to be his typical abilities then he's clearly superhuman and off

> the list anyway.

Hey, people like Batgirl and Lady Shiva were still on the DC list, and they can punch holes in brick walls and move faster than bullets. Val Armorr was excluded only because he was not from the 20th century of the DCU, not because he was metahuman.

Not to mention that people like Stick are on the Marvel list, and Stick has such truly obnoxious chi control that he can use it, among other things, to raise the dead. (Not to mention Mantis having alien pressure point attacks that can temporarily immobilize Thor and Wonder Man, etc.)

Iron Fist's meta stats all derive from his super-duper extra-dimensional (K'un Lun is in another dimension, remember) martial arts training, and so he qualifies, methinks.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Apparently, somebody's too good to simply say 'I think you missed issue # such-and-such.' Nope, gotta jump straight to calling other people liars (well, OK, you *merely* said that I was trying to pass off "flat-out bull" on the audience... oh, wait, there's no real difference.)

*snorts*

And people say *I'm* rude.

PS -- issue #?

Re: DC's Best Martial Artist

The Question is very very good, but I don't know enough to say *how* good. I'm 99% sure he's below the Black Canary/Bronze Tiger level, but he's definitely way above the Huntress level.

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Sorry. Cap has beaten all of these guys more than once' date=' and they all pretty much admit he's the best. It's all out there if someone cares enough to do the research.[/quote']

 

Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist. I know, I've read the issue where Iron Fist busts into Avengers Mansion.

 

Cap *drew even* with Iron Fist, on a day where, immediately before his walking into Avengers Mansion and being mistaken for a villain, Iron Fist had:

 

* gone three rounds with the entire Wrecking Crew

* entered a mystical contest of wills with Karnilla the Norn Queen

* had just finished shielding Jarvis from multiple impacts with his own body, thus helping Jarvis be only unconscious, and not dead.

 

And *then* IF has to go around with Cap (who walked in at the exact wrong moment, and was under the mistaken impression that Iron Fist is the one who'd just downed Jarvis, and that Jarvis was dead).

 

And they broke even.

 

And this is with Cap holding nothing back (he thought he was going up against Jarvis' murderer), and Iron Fist *was* holding back (as Cap himself specifically commented at one point in the fight -- "I get the feeling he could have hit me even harder.").

 

So, on a day when Iron Fist is already exhausted and has gone through a lineup of heavy hitters, *and* he's holding back, a Captain America who is holding *nothing* back...

 

... can break even with him.

 

(And that's with having the Mighty Shield vs. Danny's bare hands. If Cap had fought Iron Fist mano-a-mano, he'd be toast... as Daniel would have landed at least one solid hit with the Iron Fist had Cap not had the shield to block, and unless you're a solid brick and/or wrapped in vibranium armor, one solid hit with the IF is all it takes.)

 

This would mean that at full performance, IF would logically be above him, yes? (And given that Iron Fist has held even with Spider-Man, casually thrown Wolverine around like a handball, and a similarily long list of impressive feats, this is not implausible to me.)

 

Iron Fist is, if not to quite so ridiculous a level, the Val Armorr of the Marvel Universe. Via chi control and exotic training, he does things that would require major-league metahumanness for anyone else. (Such as casually punching steel girders in half *WITHOUT* charging up the Iron Fist, for example.)

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

Slade "Deathstroke" Wilson is metahumanly strong and fast. Not *as* fast or *as* strong as Spidey, but definitely above the 'peak human' Cap level.

He also recently picked up an almost Deadpool-level healing factor, so he's DQ'ed anyway.