melessqr

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me... Otherwise the limitation is however many Disads you'll allow him to tack onto each form...

Melessqr

What's more complicated, taking:

 

1 level Growth

+1/2 0 END

+1/2 Persistent

+1/4 Inherent

-1/2 Always On

 

or taking:

Physical Limitation (7' tall -1 DCV and PER)?

 

I would think it is just easier to take the Physical Limitation.

Doesn't matter anymore... I've changed the character conception to conform to the mechanics... which is easier than having the mechanics model the character conception.

Melessqr

Think I'm just going to buy the first level of Growth as Always On... Thanks for the Inherent tip, I wouldn't have thought of that.

Seems like every "Longism" I'm running into does little other than add complexity and bookeeping.

Melessqr

FREd, Page 118 Growth

"...Growth is for characters who can alter their size; if the character is exceptionally large all the time, he can simulate that by buying various Powers with that special effect (see page 85)."

I've got a character that was supposed to have 1 level of Growh on all the time (be exceptionally large all the time) and have 2 more levels of Growth that he can turn on and off... so, when fully grown, he's have 3 levels of growth, and be +3 Body, +3 Stun, -2 DCV, +2 Per Roll Against, +1 Hexes Reach, +15 Str...

Body and Stun... no problem... but +1 each 'ungrown'... Reach? 1 inch of Stretching linked to Growth, only useable when the power is used at max strength...

But, how the Heck do I buy the -2 DCV, and +2 Perception Roll Against linked to Growth, only useable with the power is used at Max Strength?

Melessqr

FREd, Page 118 Growth

"...Growth is for characters who can alter their size; if the character is exceptionally large all the time, he can simulate that by buying various Powers with that special effect (see page 85)."

I've got a character that was supposed to have 1 level of Growh on all the time (be exceptionally large all the time) and have 2 more levels of Growth that he can turn on and off... so, when fully grown, he's have 3 levels of growth, and be +3 Body, +3 Stun, -2 DCV, +2 Per Roll Against, +1 Hexes Reach, +15 Str...

Body and Stun... no problem... but +1 each 'ungrown'... Reach? 1 inch of reach linked to Growth, only useable when the power is used at max strength...

But, how the Heck do I buy the -2 DCV, and +2 Perception Roll Against linked to Growth, only useable with the power is used at Max Strength?

It shouldn't be this complex... it isn't this complex if you just buy 1 level of Growth 'Always On'... but that's not how it's supposed to be done.

Melessqr

According to Steve Long (queue angelic choir) Fractional speed Only exists for the purpose of buying the speed up to the next level full point of speed. There is no fractional speed for any other purpose...

So, "No."

Of course... Steve's wrong, but what ya gonna do?

Melessqr

Simon has, on the 9th page of this tread, and repeatedly throughout a large majority of the threads on this subject, accused me (inaccurately) of disagreeing that the rules of the game as defined by Mr. Long are not accurately enforced by HD.

I've never made such a statment, nor implied such a thing, and I would like Dan's statments to that effect retracted.

Melessqr

I'd still like my retraction, please.

Melessqr

This is where you are wrong.

Having the ability to define the rules does not make the rules right. It can at best make the rule and rulings on them correct, which is a very different thing from right.

Melessqr

I stated that HD was following the rules of the system and you and Melessqr felt otherwise.

I've never said nor implied that HD wasn't working as designed nor have I said that HD was not (in this case) following the rules of the system as defined by Mr. Long. Please cite your source or retract the accusation.

Mr. Long, despite his position as Line Designer, is in my opinion Wrong on this issue. I've detailed my reasons for this succinctly elsewhere in this thread.

Melessqr

[see subject]

Melessqr

The Logo under your name, and administrative abilities make you, defacto, a representative of the company. I would never have anyone with the people skill you have representing my company.

If you want to be Just Another Poster, then get rid of your logo and sacrifice your administrative access. Otherwise, deal with being a representative of the company and develope a little decorum.

Melessqr

As time goes on, I'm sure that I will be adding to the list of items in the campaign rules....that's just a matter of folks posting what they'd like to see.

I'd like to see the ability to buy and sell off fractional points of SPD, Please.

Melessqr

Thanks, Monolith. Just what I was looking for.

Melessqr

...a power that makes someone easier to hit?

A Cosmic "Kick Me" sign...

What I'm looking for is something that Decreases the Target's DCV for some period of time... Which suggests a Drain, but you can't Drain DCV.

You could Drain Dex... but that's affecting his DCV and SPD too... Not what I'm looking for.

Melessqr

Steve Long Wrote:

Technically this is a game design philosophy question, but since I can answer briefly, I will.

 

It's illegal to sell them back because they don't, technically, exist -- SPD rounds down the the next lowest whole point. If he sells off another Characteristic, a character is actually losing something -- he's giving up some benefit he would otherwise have. This is untrue with fractional SPD; technically the character is giving up nothing, and it's both unfair and unbalanced to get something for nothing.

You're wrong. I paid for them as part of my 3 points of the points of DEX I bought. And, if I can't sell off unwanted fractional points of SPD, you're not letting me sell back something for nothing, but forcing me to spend points on something that provides no benefit. But, you're the guy that's making the rules, and obviously aren't going to change anything.

As a benefit to characters, the rules let a character buy his SPD Characteristic up by paying off the fractional remainder, but that's just a courtesy.

Golly gee, thanks bunches!

Characters can't buy fractional SPD as a Power (note the difference from what you've written) because it creates too many mathematical and conceptual problems.

Like what? Name one... Waving your hand and making a claim doesn't make it so... Except, of course, you're "The Man" and are perfectly capable of waving your hand and making EBs only affect characters that wear blue... Which would be about a sensical as this ruling.

The solution, if all of this troubles you, is to make all Figured Characteristics into Primary Characteristics with their starting values as 2, 2, 2, 4, 20, and 20, respectively. That solves all these problems nicely.

Nah... easier than that, just buy odd points of DEX with NFC, which mathmaticly mirrors the my position (which in and of itself should be support for my position) but increases complexity and bookeep. Which as far as I can see is the only effect of your ruling... Increasing complexity and bookeeping.

Melessqr

( trying to show just how big of an asshole he can be.

Think you won that contest.

Enjoy your beer.

Melessqr

Q: If a character ends up with a fractional remainder for SPD (for example, he has DEX 24, yielding a SPD of 3.4, and chooses not to buy it up to 4), may he sell back the fractional remainder?

 

A: No, not even if he sells his SPD all the way back to the next lowest number (e.g., to SPD 2 from SPD 3.4). The character you describe doesn’t have a “SPD 3.4†— he has SPD 3, and thus nothing to sell back. A “fractional result†for SPD only comes into play, and only benefits the character, if he chooses to buy his SPD up to the next whole number.

Steve's contention in this answer is that there is no Fractional point of speed. I submit that this is wrong. The reason that DEX costs 3 points per point is that it contributes to both SPD and CV. If it didn't, it would only be used to determine the order of action of characters in a segment, and as the basis for making Dex Rolls... A little more usefull than COM, but not as useful as STR, CON, EGO, or even PRE.

My contention is that those Fractional Points Exist because I bloody well paid for them, and if I want to, I can sell them back. If I have a 12 DEX and a 2.2 SPD, I paid 6 Points for 2 points of Dex... a large percentage of the reason I paid 3 points each for those points of DEX is the .2 SPD it got me. If I don't want to make use of those fractional points of SPD, then I want the points back.

I Paid for those Fractions... They Exist.

Melessqr

I think you're mad...

I'm not.

Having gamed with several of the original Hero people, they had different interpretations amongst themselves.

Thanks. Sort of squashes the pompus "There's never been a rule change, this is the way it's always been, you're just Wrong." poodoo.

Think I'll contact Aaron Alston, Earl Cooley, and some of the others I know from Aaron's campaign and see what their interpretation was back in the day.

Melessqr

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

Melessqr

Except, of course, for the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer.....the guy that makes the rules.

Except, of course, the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer, to which you refer aren't In either of the sources cited.

Melessqr

...is it illegal to sell back fractional points of speed or buy fractional points of speed?

Melessqr

As the book frequently points out, how you the GM runs things is most important. You already have a house rule for this situation -- and it's clearly a house rule

I had a house rule... which I (and a whole slew of very intellegent, educated, and highly literate people with whom I've played) over the span of that decade had accepted as "The way it works", not as a 'house rule'. There are others that obviously produced the same interpretation of the rules from the words printed in both the BBB and the FREd.

Now I have Another "House Rule" because the $40 software I bought will not support the "House Rule" that we'd lived with so happily for a decade.

Now I'm told that everything I know is wrong, and the Rules I Bought aren't the Rules... but a Subset of the Rules, and that I am required to aquire additional materials to have a complete set of rules.

Melessqr

Rules include those rules in the FAQ. That's why it's there: to make things clear.

Then you need to print a lable on the book warning people that what they're buying is NOT a complete rule set, and that internet access will be required to have access to the complete rule set.

Also, remove the claim on Page 2 of FREd that what is included in the book is a complete rules set.

Melessqr

....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject.

No... No, they're not... Obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be FAQ entries about it... People asking questions indicates the rules are unclear. People asking questions about it frequently indicates that the rules are very unclear.

Melessqr