Sean Waters

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

Because it is cool. First power I'd buy if I was making a character sheet up for me. It is not expensive, and telling people you remember the French Revolution first hand (not the one in the 1960s...) has to be worth major kudos. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It is worth it IMO even if you double the cost. Twice.

Can you accept a power if you are unconscious, or do you get any choice, whether it is beneficial or not? Specific example if The Shade who can make herself and up to seven others desolid. Maximan (Hero) and Scrapper (Villain) are both unconscious (and likely to be for some time) and The Shade wants to take them with her, which entails passing through a solid steel vault door.

If they stay in the vault they will suffocate, but if Scrapper is 'rescued' he will face the death penalty for murder, sentence to be carried out ASAP and it is possible, but he does not know for sure, that he could revive before he dies and escape under his own power.

Can Maximan and/or Scrapper be desolided out of there?

OK, so not strictly a rules question, but, how many times a day do you smack you head against a wall and cry out at the madness?

...and can I suggest that, whilst you are obviously the fount of all knowledge and the All Wise One* there are some questions which seem to stimulate a great deal of debate, and it can't be a bad thing to look at all the arguments.

Might there be room for another forum: 'Steve's Referred Questions': you could give a provisional answer to certain 'woolly' or ill defined questions and then post them to a new forum for general comment? After a certain time a consensus might appear that would allow you to draw on the views of the unwashed masses, and form a view incorporating all the evidence. At (starting a sentence with a preposition (twice in the same paragraph); what would my English teacher think of me?) the very least it may save some sticking plaster...

*...and let's face it, it is your game and you can do what you damn well please...

Re: How to: Reverse persistant?

The effort as imagined is the same act of will is the same as anyone else with desolid 0 end would need to do.

 

The character is modeled after Shadowcat after she was wounded in the Mutant Masacre storyline.

 

I think the best way is to buy it as Persistant, 0 end, inherent (good catch) and then Accidental Change (probably at 0 points, maybe not)

Inherent has advantages and disadvantages. It is like always on BUT with immunity to drains, and is cheaper to turn off than 'always on'. Someone with Desolid at zero END just has to will the power to stop and it does until turned back on. If you are 'naturally' desolid it takes far more effort to 'negate' the power. I might suggest another level of 'inherent' at +1/2 which allows you to turn off the power by spending END but you don't need to keep spending END to have it switched off (based on the END only to turn on +1/4 advantage).

As I recall, Kitty lost control over her desolid power, but spent at least some time solid and unconscious.

You do not need accidental change (well, it is a disadvantage you'd be getting points for, so I guess what I mean is you shouldn't be allowed accidental change) if it is just a reversion on unconsciousness, as inherent/always on already do that, so it is no more a disadvantage than simply having those limitations. If you took it, it would have to mean, depending on the level, that you changed at other times too, say on 8-/11- or 14- every time you took damage. That would be Taking damage (VC: 15 points), then +0/+5 or +10. This would simulate the 'natural' reaction to pain: trying to avoid it. Real pain if you are carrying your unconscious team mate at the time...Sound good?

Complete aside, but possibly relevant, but if you had inherent AND useable by others (Kitty certainly had UBO) and you were carrying an unconscious teammate:

a: could they 'accept' the power if they were unconscious (even if it would be beneficial), and, assuming they could,

b: would they be given the opportunity if you changed accidentally?

Aside 2: do you envisage the character being able to carry stuff whislt desolid?

Re: slots with different limitations

Actually what the FAQ says is:

Q: The rules say a character cannot apply a Limitation to a Multipower’s reserve cost unless it applies to all the slots. Assuming a character has the same value of Limitations on each slot, could he get around this rule by applying the Variable Limitation Limitation to each slot?

A: No. That’s an attempt to avoid the spirit of the rules while still obeying the letter, and should be considered illegal unless specifically allowed by the GM.

Now if I was your GM, I'd allow it subject to a veto on anything I thought was abusive or plain powermongering. I mean the alternative would be a VPP and, frankly, they scare me.

Now I know someone, somewhere is going to pick me up on saying I agree with the use of any kind of power framework, but we'll debate that one if they notice, eh?

Re: Improved Absorption?

You shouldn't IMO be trying to simulate a power that you don't like the mechanics of with another power or powers. Think about that 15 points you are getting from that energy blast...say your campaign limit is 15d6 EB, and both you and your opponent have an EB at that level, that 15 points increases it to 18d6. Because of the way that Hero works, if you could damage your opponent with a 15d6 blast, ALL of the additional 3 dice is going to damage your opponent without subtraction, that is 10-11 points on average a hit, which may in fact double the amount of damage you are getting through your opponents defences. That is not weak.

What you would like to do, by the look of it, is get stronger and negate any damage you just took. You can do this with absorption (3d6 absorption (15 AP), STR and STUN (+1/2) +2 to maximum, to 20 (+1 AP)*, total cost 24 points). But that only saves 6 points on just buying the characteristics! I know, but if you are at or near campaign maxima already, and your GM agrees, this will allow you to exceed them, which is powerful magic. In fact it would be the same cost as buyuing the characteristics with the limitation (only active for one turn after being hit by an energy attack -1/4). Why only -1/4? Because energy attacks happen all the time in Champions.

If you really think the mechanic is broken, and your GM agrees, just tweak the cost, but it isn't, you know.

*the +2 points is so that you can max out at +20, and even after PS12 deduction of 5 points you still have the full 15 points of effect you are after, so long as you get hit by an EB at least once a turn.

NB your +15 (or +20) STUN is only added once: it can not keep negating damage, it just increases the maximum, or theoretical maximum, by that amount.

Re: Schmucks?

...anyway ayou needn't worry about the UberVillains, they have given up the sort of crime that involves hitting heroes, and have bought controlling stakes in Coca Cola, and the company that counts the votes in elections.

Re: Schmucks?

Are 350 point characters "Chumps"?

 

Depends entirely on what kind of opposition they face.

No, it depends on how they face their opposition, whatever the points spent on them. The game, after all, is based on the HERO system.

They may not be equal to the challenge, but that does not make them 'foolish or contemptible persons', which is what schmucks/chumps means.

Re: Desolid Munchkin Question

Have your brick's SFX: 'changes to organic copper', and give him a 2d6 or 3d6 drain vs electrical SFX linked to his strength, call it 'Grounding'. First couple of hits he may not feel but then the FF is dropping and more STUN is getting through...(don't forget defences take twice the points to drain).

Mind you if a character with defences that high is a problem, I blame you for letting him have them. Make sure you don't design villains just to get around your heroes' powers, that willcause bitterness if it is spotted, but it is fine if you are designing Hunteds that the character got points for. You can always have a villain with similar defences and they can not affect each other enough to ever manage a KO...could be fun, or at least funny...

Re: What is up with falling?

I suppose if you are worried that you are not killing enough normals by throwing them off buildings (Hey, Jed, lookee - anuther 'un just hobbled away...maybe the pile's gettin' too big 'n' cushnin the fall!), you could apply the impairment rules to normals: half BODY, before or after area multiplier, to head, chest, stomach or vitals and you can consider them dead. Maybe that is why they wear helmets - they've read Champions and know the head has a x2 BODY multiplier...

Re: What is up with falling?

I do this: if you take more D6 of damage than you have PD, it converts to killing. Thus, you can fall 2" and take 2D6. This lets our boy Brent here drunkenly fall out of the back of a pickup without snapping his leg. But when Brent falls off a building and takes 10D6, he actually takes 3D6+1. That's about 12 Body that he takes instead of 8.

 

Oh yeah, skydivers wear helmets to protect them if their chute only partially opens, or something like that.

What a good idea: and normal PD won't help, but I might make it 2xPD or PD+4 otherwise people would be punching holes in each other all the time. It also means that if a super hits a normal they have to be real careful...

Re: How to: Reverse persistant?

...so it looks like this:

Desolid (40 AP) 0 END Persistent Inherent (+1 1/4), total AP: 90. I'd make END cost (depending on your characteristics) 9 per phase, that you can not pay to reduce to become solid, maybe more if you have really high END or REC...and no 'becoming solid' END batteries either...

I would let you have always on but that would seriously ramp up the END cost (see FRED), to maybe 45 END (or, arguably either 54, 29 or 20) a phase...you don't need the points that bad...

Have fun.

Re: How to: Reverse persistant?

If your natural state is desolid then you should buy it with 'inherent' so that your natural state can not be dispelled. In fact it is an advantage to revert to desolid when KO'd as it means that most opponents can not touch you and you can recover in peace, so you should be paying more for it. Having said that, inherent lets you turn off the power at will by paying END (so you automatically become desolid if KO'd). If I was the GM I'd make you pay a +1/4 advantage (at least) to do that as I think 'natural desolid' is too unbalancing for the reasons given above, or make the END cost for solidity real big so that you can not stay solid long at all. You need p165 of FRED.

Re: Mystic "The's"

"The Janitor" who follows the other six around and clears up the mess they make. Transformation, change environment, superspeed, KS: Stain Devils, that sort of thing...

Re: Schmucks?

And here's one to think on: 'powerful' is a relative concept independent of points in the build. You can come up with a 1000 MegaHero, and I can come up with a 350 SuperVillain that can trounce him/her/it: it depends what is in the mix.

Re: Schmucks?

If your game world is populated by 1000 point monsters, then you need a 750+ point character to compete. If it is mainly 'normals' with a selection of villains in the 100-400 point range, a 350 point character is powerful, and probably too high to start on.

In 'real world' terms, virtually any level of power is 'powerful'.

This is not a question with a right answer, I think the real problem is that some people seem to think there is one.

Re: Schmucks?

The opinion was voiced recently that 350 point character are "schmucks" in the Dark Champions forum. Not my choice of words' date=' but there you have it. How many people share that opinion? Personally, I've found the 350 or so level is where I most enjoy Champions and I've found the characters (creatively created and used) to be pretty competent and fun to play. Compared to Monsters like Dr. Destroyer and Tyrannanon? I guess not, but I tend to rate characters more on what they are in the "real world". Maybe it comes from using Hero more on the Hero level than the Superheroic.[/quote']

 

350 points is plenty for a decent superhero. I'm still getting used to that exhalted level after the 250 point starting point of previous editions, and that created some pretty beefy characters.

 

I agree with you nexus; IMO, any schmuck can spend more points. If whoever posted that wants to play Captain Ultimate, or whatever, knock yourself out, and don't have a go at me for preferring characters that are more of a challenge.

Re: Critique of how I made these grenades.

I've never liked this write-up. Knockback would be applied before the Dispel took effect. Since the Dispel immediately wears off (the target can just turn it back on) it generally doesn't even work for a second hit.

Is KB applied before damage takes effect if you punch someone? No, it is not, so there is no reason the KB would be applied before the dispel.

As for turning it back on, so what? You've already been knocked back, which was the point.

However I also like the Banger effect you suggested. I would have gone for the no damage EB which I now acknowledge would have been shallow and unimaginative.

Re: No Frameworks?

I don't think you and I are going to find much to agree on here. I also have to wonder why you bother with the HERO system rules' date=' rather than something that is more rigidly defined.[/quote']

 

Now you are going to upset me, and that is not easy to do. I've played over a dozen superhero games, and Champions is the easy winner (The original version of Golden Heroes second, V&V third, M&M fourth, probably...or maybe SuperWorld...). I have played since it came out, and the best games I have run or played in have been Champions games. I played Danger Inc, Espionage, Fantasy Hero, Western Hero and that damn thing with the giant robots. That last one could have done with a polish...

 

Point is (a phrase I've excessively fond of), you can say what you like about my opinions (and more than half the time I'm just playing devil's advocate and arguing for the sake of it), life would be desperately boring if we all agreed, but I wouldn't be here at all if I didn't think this was a damn good game and care about how it it is used and how it develops.

 

End of rant. Ay thenku.

Re: No Frameworks?

All of these character types are valid characters' date=' and the HERO system, if it is to mimic the comics at all, should allow for all of them at relatively similar point costs. As is, this is hard to do. Try making a good representation of Power Man and a good representation of Green Lantern on the same 350 points. [/quote']

 

Oh Lordy, please do not tell me you think that you should be able to?

Re: No Frameworks?

You know, I started to write out a response based on the numbers game, but I decided not to do that, because ultimately that isn't the issue with why I think Power Frameworks are fine.

 

To me, it comes down to the fact that the current system does a good job of portraying how characters work in most superhero comics, and most particularly, in the sorts of comics the game was developed to represent.

 

So, rather than get more into a numbers argument here, let's hear your ideas of how the rules could better represent what they're supposed to represent. Let's hear you actually make and support an argument of your own, rather than attacking.

You've had lots of good arguments and worked examples, and your argument about the game representing comic books is slowly creeping round to 'comic books I like'.

I'll build you a Lemming style flame based character...soon as I get back from walking the dog.

Re: No Frameworks?

I rebuilt Menton that way for my campaign. He's vastly more dangerous that way. .

Listen to yourself...'vastly more powerful' built with a VPP. How is that balanced?

For purposes of representing the way characters work in comic books' date=' a great many characters should have VPPs, actually - usually very small ones. This represents the number of odd things a super-stretcher like Plastic Man can do, or all the small, mundane uses a character like the Human Torch or Iceman might find for fire or cold. VPPs need not be large to be useful. A character with light/energy/quantum powers can benefit quite a bit in versatility and conceptual soundness by having a 20-30 pt vpp for things like Images, Change Environment, small/gradual Transform effects and the like.[/quote']

 

Nah. Make them buy it with character points; either make players save half their experience to spend when they think of something new to do, or advance the XP when they think of something cool and appropriate. Handing out VPPs left right and centre is lazy design.

Re: No Frameworks?

It would be, except that the character has nowhere near 750 points of *efficacy*.

 

More than anything else, multipowers and VPPs account for the fact that while a character may be able to do many things, they can only do a limited number of them at a time.

...and characters that can only dio a few things can only do a limited number of them at a time, too.

Re: No Frameworks?

To me' date=' it's an argument for, because once again, that's how characters work in the comics. Some characters can only do one or two things - Power Man, Spider-Man, Tigra and She-Hulk come to mind. Other characters can do a lot of things, but usually not at the same time, and any individual thing they does is not necessarily more effective than what the one-trick character does. The Human Torch and Hawkeye are examples. Yet, these characters coexist as more or less equals. They only way to effectively build both types of characters for similar point costs is through Power Frameworks.[/quote']

 

I think you'll find that a lot of people might disagree that Spiderman is a one trick pony. In fact I think you'll find that what characters can do is more a function of the imagination of the writers than of the powers.

Re: No Frameworks?

Because you can redefine them or come up with new ones between sessions' date=' or in slow times during play. You can also have multiple lists pre-defined and switch between them at will, or have a massive list of pre-defined and costs and pick from them on the fly. A multipower is a static list.[/quote']

 

Yes...I think we agree, a VPP is cheaper and more useful than a MP...how can that be right, assuming you advocate balance in your games, and you are not just powergaming frameworks using the 'coherent design' thing as, well, smoke...?