Ryhope Wood

Is this an expansion and update to the bestiary in the Tuala Morn campaign book for 5E?  Have the stats been updated to 6E?

Thanks in anticipation,

Ian

Dark Champions (5E) is great for modern action films.  If you want the work done for you then the Grimoires (5E) and Equipment Guide (5E) are very handy.  For 4E stuff, Western Hero is a personal favourite of mine.

Sorry I did not explain myself very well. In 6E Book 2, the wording under disarm says use 1D6 for every 5 STR. In FHC, it says use the exact damage from the STR table. So, if you have STR 8 then according to FHC you would use 1.5 D6. According to 6E Book 2 you would use 1D6 as you have only 1 full increment of 5 STR.

Okay. My bad. I found the reference to STR rolls under characteristics on page 17. However, it does seem to be different from 6E Book 2 in that it uses STR damage from the table rather than the rule of thumb of 1D6 per 5 STR.

Is it just me? The text for this maneuver was difficult to follow without referring to 6E Book 2. It is missing the text that explains that "If the Attack Roll succeeds, the two characters engage in a STR Versus STR Contest: each rolls 1d6 per 5 points of STR and counts the Normal Damage BODY." I would have just assumed it was a Skill versus Skill type contest, but then the text mentioned BODY and I couldn't follow it.

Not sure if this is errata or not.

As for magic, I like the idea of requiring a Skill roll, but hate the requirement to impose a penalty based on Active Points. It's ridiculously crippling for high Active Point spells, it leads to absurdly inflated rolls or to including a "+20 Skills Levels only to counter Active Point Penalty" construct, and it annoys players to have to remember a different penalty to apply for every single spell. I DO have a solution.

 

I've started requiring all magic to draw from a "Mana Pool" (END Reserve) and put the Requires a Roll Limitation on THAT. It still has the effect of requiring a roll for every spell, but if the penalty is based on the Active Points of the END being used I feel we can safely ignore the penalty altogether but still be good under Rules as Written.

I like the idea.  I built a skills only magic system to keep it simple for my players.  They purchased spells as skills with a penalty for more powerful spells based on active points totals.  In order to avoid ridiculous penalties I used a non-linear progression for the relationship between AP and penalty.

On the wider topic, I think it would be a very good idea to build pre-gens.  While I think HERO does have a wealth of options for magic-users, it is rarely put together as a complete package.  Newbies are therefore left wondering what it is their magic-user looks like in stats terms - eg. how much Mana Pool do I need to function properly?  How many points to put into my framework?  The pre-gens will be highly useful in solving this.

I am starting to think that the old toolkit approach to selling Hero might be wearing thin. That gamers today don't have the time or motivation to spend a ton of time using a game system to create low level things like spells and abilities. Perhaps the GURPS approach of having everything written up for a genre is the best way to go. The nice twist is that with Hero we can show people how to modify stuff to fit their tastes. Something that no other game system does really well.

That means that when Hero releases books they should be looking at marketing a game world more than just a whole Genre book. That does mean setting clear power levels and having PC examples and NPC examples that fit within that Powerlevel. It also means that stuff like Spells, Special Abilities, Equipment etc should be written up and 'ready to go".

QFT. GURPS breathed a lot of life into itself with the Dungeon Fantasy series of PDFs. D20 based games like Pathfinder are the most popular because they support system tinkerers and those with a busy life that need stuff 'ready to run'. It would be great if the HERO system had its own series of PDFs that showed how it could simulate D&D as described by Tasha. Those wanting to experiment further can then build off the basics in any direction they so wished. Another useful thing would be to come up with a reduced stat blocks for NPCs and monsters to show GMs they do not need to detail everything.

One of the problems I see for converters from D&D is the relative cheapness of primary characteristics, which leaves them wondering what they should spend their points on if they are not wizards or heavy magic item users.

I like and agree with what a lot of other people are saying. The key to growing the HERO player base is to lure GMs over from Pathfinder or D&D 4E with the prospect that they can easily tweak the system to their liking but run something out of the box. Asking a D&D GM to basically create everything from scratch is not going to appeal to any of them including me! M&M 2E and 3E offered a way in for D&D GMs - although most 3E support has been driven by the fans.

Another challenge for the d20 player is benchmarking abilities and also handling characteristics for low level characters.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long.

 

2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting.

 

3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve.

I've been playing RPGs on and off with the same group of friends for about 30 years as well. Many of the advantages of HERO can also be its disadvantages. My friends have played Champions over the years and love it for super heroes. The problem is often using the HERO System at the Heroic Tier for vanilla D&D fantasy or low magic sword and sorcery. The key attraction to someone playing D&D of a generic system like HERO is the ability to tweak everything within a consistent framework. This is especially attractive to a GM who wants to create exactly the kinds of settings he wants. For me the driver to change from D&D to another system will therefore more often come from the GM rather than the players. However the ability to tweak requires a large time investment for HERO, which is often a stretch for older players like myself who have numerous non-game commitments.

Fantasy Hero must compete with other generic systems for the disenchanted D&D GM. Notable competitors are GURPS, Savage Worlds, and FATE. How does HERO stack up against these for fantasy gaming?

GURPS and HERO are much more detailed and more precisely tweak able. FATE has a lot of hand waving / lack of granular detail, and Savage Worlds lies in-between. On the other hand, FATE and Savage Worlds are a lot easier on time-pressed GMs.

So if you (a) like granular detail and ( have time to commit to developing your fantasy campaign you are going down the GURPS or HERO route.

GURPS has some notable advantages: (a) extensive equipment lists (and where equipment is defined as is not as powers), ( characteristic costs maintain the differentiation that players expect from D&D, and © a more familiar basic spell system. GURPS is more difficult to learn than HERO but feels closer to the game material because everything isn't built from powers. HERO is easier to learn, and a lot of things have pre-built examples, but it just seems more intimidating to the new player. For example, GURPS characteristics still default from primary to secondary attributes. Breaking this link in 6E HERO just leaves a newbie GM wanting to know how much END they should buy to be reasonable. Min-maxing in HERO is also an acknowledged problem especially with primary characteristics. The character sheets look very intimidating! HERO is clearly more cinematic and is often easier to adjudicate because it has less specific (and often unnecessary detail). HERO feels more like the less gritty fantasy that we want to play.

This is why I yo-yo between GURPS and HERO as the game I would like to run (FATE is just too light on detail for me) but my group actually plays Pathfinder or D20 Conan.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

1. The players. Seriously, the type of gamer who is drawn to a system like HERO is a different breed from your typical D&Der or Pathfinder player. My weekly gaming group typically plays some version of AD&D or Pathfinder, and the players are almost always focused on one thing: min-maxing everything. Unfortunately, many of the "canned" adventures pretty much expect or encourage this by making some of the challenges pretty much impossible if you don't min-max. As a result, things are focused more on game mechanics than story and character development. Juxtapose this with my previous gaming group (which is currently playing Fantasy HERO, unfortunately on a night that I cannot attend), and you'll find the players far more focused on developing skills and abilities that "make sense" for the character or current story rather than simply trying to get the most "bang for the buck" out of every point. HERO players also tend to understand the value and interest of disadvantages and weaknesses, whereas your typical D&Der will attempt to develop their character into an invulnerable mop-monster as quickly as possible...And if that's what they and their gamemasters enjoy, more power to them. It's just not a style of play I find entertaining for long.

 

2. As other people have mentioned, the flexibility to literally do ANYTHING is one of the great strengths of the HERO System. You can create a "character" and then let his abilities evolve organically as the story progresses, rather than being locked into a rigid schedule of progression based upon choices that you made before the actual game even started. Unfortunately, for newcomers to the system, this flexibility is also one of the great barriers to getting started (successfully) with the system. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to figure out whether a player's build is "unbalancing", particularly for someone new to HERO. Add to that the sheer number of options available, and the system can SEEM quite daunting.

 

3. Simplicity and consistency of the basic mechanic. The same basic mechanic is used for just about everything. This helps simplify the learning curve.

I've been playing RPGs on and off with the same group of friends for about 30 years as well. Many of the advantages of HERO can also be its disadvantages. My friends have played Champions over the years and love it for super heroes. The problem is often using the HERO System at the Heroic Tier for vanilla D&D fantasy or low magic sword and sorcery. The key attraction to someone playing D&D of a generic system like HERO is the ability to tweak everything within a consistent framework. This is especially attractive to a GM who wants to create exactly the kinds of settings he wants. For me the driver to change from D&D to another system will therefore more often come from the GM rather than the players. However the ability to tweak requires a large time investment for HERO, which is often a stretch for older players like myself who have numerous non-game commitments.

Fantasy Hero must compete with other generic systems for the disenchanted D&D GM. Notable competitors are GURPS, Savage Worlds, and FATE. How does HERO stack up against these for fantasy gaming?

GURPS and HERO are much more detailed and more precisely tweak able. FATE has a lot of hand waving / lack of granular detail, and Savage Worlds lies in-between. On the other hand, FATE and Savage Worlds are a lot easier on time-pressed GMs.

So if you (a) like granular detail and ( have time to commit to developing your fantasy campaign you are going down the GURPS or HERO route.

GURPS has some notable advantages: (a) extensive equipment lists (and where equipment is defined as is not as powers), ( characteristic costs maintain the differentiation that players expect from D&D, and © a more familiar basic spell system. GURPS is more difficult to learn than HERO but feels closer to the game material because everything isn't built from powers. HERO is easier to learn, and a lot of things have pre-built examples, but it just seems more intimidating to the new player. For example, GURPS characteristics still default from primary to secondary attributes. Breaking this link in 6E HERO just leaves a newbie GM wanting to know how much END they should buy to be reasonable. Min-maxing in HERO is also an acknowledged problem especially with primary characteristics. The character sheets look very intimidating!

This is why I yo-yo between GURPS and HERO as the game I would like to run (FATE is just too light on detail for me) but my group actually plays Pathfinder or D20 Conan.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

In my opinion:

 

Going with option 2, the INcomplete Fantasy Hero will limit your market to those who already have Champions Complete or some other form of the core rules. The only other people who buy it will be those who did not notice the blurb saying it's not a complete game, and they will be angry customers who badmouth Hero to their friends. "Fantasy gamer buys Incomplete Fantasy product and then buys Champions Complete to be able to use it" is a scenario that is not going to happen.

 

So if you do this at all, I don't think it's worth doing unless you do Complete Fantasy - or whatever you call it, you will need just one book to play. Of course it should be taillored to Fantasy exclusively: rename the Paramedics Skill, cut Skills and Powers that don't fit, add some good Talents, etc.

 

That said, this may not be the right time to do this AT ALL. Narosia is currently offering exactly that, a complete game based on Hero, and my advice is to not directly compete with them right now. I also advise not viewing Narosia as too reliable a predictor in terms of sales and popularity, but I'd said wait at least six months if not a year.

 

I spent New Years Eve runnng Fantasy Hero for my game group, and they love it by the way. I asked them (3 people) about this issue, and the consensus is the same as I have been saying - zero interest in a "you gotta buy Champions Complete first" version, but something complete in one book might stand a chance "if it's simple to understand."

 

 

 

More later

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I'm out of tim

HERO System can be very intimidating. There has been lots of good presentational touches that make it less so (e.g. the presentation of talents in the 6E core rules, special abilities in Pulp Hero, and the spells in the Grimoire). Bringing those together for Fantasy HERO would make it more playable straight from the book. May be consider simplifying monster stat blocks too.

Re: Building a ladder with Powers

Agree with Killer Shrike.

However, either of the builds seem reasonable except there is no finite length to the ladder. Is it meant to be an infinite tool type special effect or, you know, erm, an actual ladder?

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Dungeon Hero sounds good to me.

As someone who has wrestled on and off with embracing HERO System for a while to run D&D type fantasy (not a dungeon crawl but certainly sword and sorcery), the two most useful things would be:

(1) Tailoring the rules specifically to my chosen genre and pulling it all into one place (with a not too heavy word count); and

(2) Support to GMs creating adventures (a magic system and bestiary) including a good introductory adventure.

One option to deliver (1) might be to revisit the old Viking, Egyptian or Greek supplements that used to be produced by ICE with stats for Hero. The world books would be fairly tightly defined and could be a useful jumping on point.

Low fantasy or sword and sorcery would be much better than a high fantasy / Demi-gods type setting to ease new players into the system.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Seems to me that instead of the "anything Fantasy-ish you can think of" approach of the "Fantasy HERO Phonebook" circa 5e / 6e, it might be time to re-focus on a "core" experience with some narrowing of options, one or two general purpose / compact magic systems that are shall we say "familiar" from other more mainstream game systems with some staple spells, some common "class" and "race" oriented packages, gear list, a compact vs full write-ups bestiary, and some sample characters. If it's a successful product, future small supplements could extend the core with more unusual / less commonly seen variations on fantasy.

 

If Savage Worlds can do it (i.e. tiny little 150 page Fantasy Companion), the HERO System ought to be able to do it better.

I agree wholeheartedly with this approach. It is interesting that one of the most popular GURPS lines is "Dungeon Fantasy", which honed the system down to a specific D&D like experience. Many new players for HERO System will have had some contact with Supers or D&D but felt the latter limited their creativity. They want D&D that they can tweak to their own game worlds but presenting too many options will intimidate them ( and they may be lost to other systems like Savage Worlds or GURPS).

Re: Magical Skills.

I have used individual spell skills to simulate a scholarly approach to magic with a penalty related to AP cost.

Re: Daredevil

GURPS has a Daredevil advantage. You could look at how that is constructed and work out any limitation value. I often compare the two systems to try and figure it out. GURPS LITE is available for free.

Re: Rules Question: Strength Table errata question

It's an accidental holdover from previous editions. In previous editions of the game' date=' base Leaping was derived from a character's STR; starting in Sixth Edition, it's a stand-alone ability. Just ignore the bit tying Leaping to STR. This is also fixed in the upcoming [i']Champions Complete[/i] book.

Thanks Derek. Looking forward to Champions Complete.

Just checking this is an errata.

On page 43 of 6E Volume 1 it refers to the Strength Table saying that "....indicates how much a character can lift, how much damage he does in HTH Combat, and how far he can leap, based on his STR." There is no mention of leaping in the table and I thought that 6E separated STR from Leaping anyway?

Is this an errata or have I missed something obvious?

Ian

Re: Acquitaine [PDF] now available.

Got it and like it a lot. Just prepping for my return to HERO after a dalliance with RuneQuest.

Interested to see that Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne was one of the inspirations for Steve as I love it. There is something wonderfully dark and enchanting about forests. A list of the stories can be found on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averoigne

There are a couple of collected editions of Averoigne tales available although I'm not completely sure how complete they are nor whether they are still widely available. Arkham House published a hardcover edition in 2003 entitled "A Rendezvous in Averoigne" ISBN 0-87054-156-0. It contains four tales from Averoigne. Chaosium have published three collections of CAS tales: The Tsathoggua Cycle, The Book of Eibon, and The Klarkashton Cycle. Averoigne tales can be found spread across these books. A number of the Averoigne tales are also featured in "The Emperor of Dreams", which is a relatively cheap collection in paperback published as part of the Fantasy Masterwork series by Orion Books. Finally all the Averoigne tales should be found in The Collected Fantasies of Clark Ashton Smith, which is a five volume hardcover series published by Night Shade Books. The Worlds of Cthulhu magazine also featured Averoigne across several issues. Although the material was presented for the Call of Cthulhu RPG, there was some useful settings info including maps.

Re: TUALA MORN -- Interested In More Stuff?

Definitely interested in buying this.

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

I has probably been covered elsewhere in the thread. I started suffering post-blindness at about page 2. For each God / Pantheon, could we have some discussion about the miracles / magic available to followers / Priests please? Also some info on servitors that are not covered in the bestiary already would be good.

Re: HERO System Grimoire

It isn't on the distributors list for the UK for next week (w/c 29th August), so looking at sometime in September. Same for Star Hero.

Re: HERO System Grimoire

OK. It has been a few weeks since Origins and there is no sign of the HSG in the UK. Can someone check stateside whether it is available to and ordered by any UK distributors yet? I've had to use my FLGS to kick the UK distributors Esdevium Games a few times about Hero products being available. I remember an almighty argument about the Fantasy Hero magic items book for fifth edition.

Thanks, Ian.

Re: Star Hero PDF now available.

Could someone with the PDF of the new edition and the fifth edition book give me an indication of how much new content there is between the two books aside from a costs and reference update. I looked at the preview on rpgnow tonight and the table of contents and intro text look pretty similar. As money is a lot tighter these days I can't keep buying new books which resemble more reprints than new editions.

Thanks, Ian

Re: Magic systems based on science?

If you want to go with science that is long forgotten so users now consider it magical / divine then there is the Tech Priests from Warhammer 40K.