Tasha

BTW CC and FHC ARE a subset of the 6e rules. They aren't considered a different version of the rules.

Yes you can use limitations to achieve the same thing. BUT, doing it that way makes every published 6e character with 0 body Barriers work differently than their creators meant. Which means that CC/FHC doesn't achieve that 100% compatibility that is implied. So again 6e1 IMHO is the Authoritative version of the rules here. Which is backed up by Steve ONLY answering questions using 6e1&2

It is strange that CC/FHC don't include that clause about the entire Barrier collapsing. Another item to add to the list of Stealthy revisions I suppose. In that case Dsatow was actually correct isofar as 6th edition core is concerned.

Pretty sure that is Derek forgetting to put that in, rather than an official rules change. Because doing that would make it impossible to use it to recreate Force Walls from previous editions. Also it creates a rules hole. ie If you can buy Zero Body Barriers wouldn't they then automatically have 2m x 2m x2m Hole in them? The rules as stated say "When a Barrier’s BODY has been reduced to 0, that creates a 2m wide, 2m high, 2m deep hole in it, and that hole remains in it for the rest of the Barrier’s existence. If the Barrier is smaller than that, it’s destroyed; if it’s larger, the rest of it remains.". Which is why I will default to 6e1 clearer rules.

Again yes,

In my opinion, for what that is worth, one of the biggest issues with Hero as a game as opposed to Hero as a rule system is that while meticulous detail is great in a rule set mechanics'wise.  That same level of detail is bad written BAD and crushes a "game".   The early incarnations of the various villains and organizations were great because the level of detail was low and broad making it easy for a GM to insert as needed for their world.  The later versions were so busy spelling out all the plans up to and including the color of toilet paper used that it actually became work to go in and change things.   While the Book of the Machine, DEMON and the latest Dr. Destroyer were great reads, the plot details were more of a hindrance than a plus for trying to use them.

 

 

Unless you get a major license, I don't see a lesser relatively unknown license helping. For sword style fantasy and basic generic setting would be fine.  D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age all draw on the same vanilla generic common setting with a few minor quibbles and some names.  But I can easily swap villages/locations between them and they all use orc's, goblins and so on.   And trying to be "unique" and "new" should be avoided at all costs.  Call it an elf.  Call it a human.  Call it a dwarf.  Call them Fighters.  Call them Rangers and so on.   The idea is to allow the player to play a archetype (class) and race they are familiar with.  But play that character in a much better and personal way. 

 

The statement of "I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though" confuses me though.  A game like this will mention Hero as it core powering system and there should definitely be an appendix with all the arcane Hero annotation for all the builds in the book with a note that people interested in fully customizing their game they should get FHC and here are all the details of how this particular setting was built.  

The change was that for 5e and later, Hero Started to write for a REAL Champions Universe. Not just generic supplements that you MIGHT be able to adapt to your campaign. Everything is toward that campaign. So metaplot elements are included and are VERY interesting for playing in that campaign. It makes things MUCH easier to write for if they can define a campaign's power levels, organizations etc. It makes them less adaptable to non CU campaigns. I am glad that that there ARE more plot elements given for the villains. It makes it more likely that I will connect with the Villain and want to include them in an adventure.

IMHO there should be NO appendixes that include customization information. That should be a separate document for system mechanics. I'll bet that most GMs and players won't even care about the doc. Most people won't care to make their own spells, talents, weapons etc. IMHO it will only be a small minority of players who will even care about it.

You have a point, though, it would also I think  be somewhat dependent upon an attractive license to bring people to it.  The sorts of books that may generate Cable TV shows, but before they make it big. (The Expanse, Game of Thrones), or some "fan" popular property that could be aquired with little heavy outlay. Maybe even a popular web comic might do.

 

No one has the marketing chops, or the money to sell an unknown property to the masses here at this time.

 

I still might like an appendix section that mentions Hero, though.

I would love to have "free content" (aka available for download on PDF) that gives all of the crunchy details that the Hero Grognard Mechanics crave.

To the question of a 0 BOD barrier, if that option were absent, the old Force Wall could not be replicated.

What would be the real difference between a 12 def forceWall and a 10 def 1 body Barrier? They work the same way and take the same damage to break down.

I don't fully understand what you mean here. Could you explain a little?

It making a game that doesn't have the power construction section at all. It has all of the Superskills, Spells, special abilities totally prebuilt. All Monsters, vehicles, equipment, etc prebuilt and ready to go. A game fully built and not requiring that the GM do anything more than Generate NPCs, Plotlines and encounters. It would include a fully fleshed out campaign. At least in the general sense of the word. You could still have future supplements that add stuff to the campaign and add detail to the world. The rules would only include those that are used for that game (ie FHC does this to some extent). A set of Pregenned Characters would also be nice.

A superhero setting would be difficult to built in this fashion, but pretty much any heroic game would be wonderful. This would eliminate most of the work required to run a Hero System game. It could also give Hero a potential revenue stream  It would be a different mindset. Going from being a Hero System Supplement, to Powered by The Hero System.

PS Yeah I know that I am replying to a year old post.

I think that it's you misinterpreting the chart. 6e2's chart shows everything having at least 1 body.

You should ask Steve about what is right, your interpretation or what he wrote in the only version of the rulebook he will answer questions about.

No it doesn't. Not only can barriers have less than 1 BODY and still survive attacks (assuming they've the Def to soak the damage), but Stone less than 16mm thick and Wood less than 4mm thick has no BODY according to CC 142.

 

But the rest of your points are completely accurate. Plastic still has at least 1 BODY all the way down to 4mm thick. So Windshields should probably have a couple BODY and a decent rPD, since they almost always take a significant beating before failing entirely; and obviously Safety Glass shouldn't be causing Killing Damage because it doesn't break off into knife-like shards like some types of glass do.

The tables in CC are incomplete. From 6e2 pg 171

Material or Object     PD     ED     BODY

Glass                       (1)      (1)         1

Glass, reinforced     (2)      (2)         1

Defense in (parentheses) is Normal Defense (i.e., it doesn’t apply against Killing Damage).

---

Clearly Glass has at least 1 body.

0 body = broken. Double base body = destroyed.

---

[6e2 pg 171]

"Broken Machinery

An object that takes more damage than it has

BODY is broken.

----

The text on Zero characteristics and Negative characteristics used to be better IMHO.

I suppose that would depend on how much PD your are giving this particular pane of glass. CC doesn't have an entry for the durability of glass, so I would hazard a guess of 3 or 4 PD (and 0 BODY in most cases), just high enough that a wimpy guy can break it with a Haymaker or some velocity. That's enough to do 1d6 (or 1d6+1) Killling even if all we do is convert it to Killing; which is enough damage to pretty seriously mess up a guy with only 8 BODY, but not so much you can't survive it, or negate most of it with some Combat Luck or Medium Armor (at least Brigandine or better).

It has to have a minimum of 1 body to not be broken. I would say that normal window glass in a house is probably ranges from 0-2 def depending on how thick it is. Armored glass like on Glass doors probably have 4 or more def. Glass on skyscrapers are even tougher than that, so if a clumsy exec trips and falls against the glass it won't shatter perhaps def 6-8. Hurricane Glass is stronger still and won't shatter when you drive a 4x4 wood beam into it. That's is probably def 6-8 with 3-4 body.

There are also different kinds of glass that break in different ways. Safety Glass ie in Car Side and rear windows, just shatters into a bajillion little glass balls which you would have to be extremely unlucky to be harmed by it shattering. It's designed that way. I personally have been showered with the stuff with zero ill effects .Windshields are different with 1 def and 4 or more body. Because the glass is stuck to plastic that traps the glass shards well when hit.

BTW people also use Acrylic plastic as windows and that has different properties. Probably good PD and more body than the glass.

So the answers are complicated.

I round Villain Character sheets like they were PCs. So half move rounds up. Mostly because it's habit.

In this case, no matter what Steve says I'll continue doing it the way that I have always done it. Though I will probably add on Netzilla way when it's mind-controlled PC vs regular PC. Though I may just stay consistent and rule that the Mind Controlled PC is a foe and is rounded down.

So if an opponent with a DCV of 7 gets stunned, their DCV is 3?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Inquiring palindromedaries want to know

Yep.

I don't allow PvP in my games, so rounding in the Player's favor works well.

I always round 0.5 in the player's favor. It's been a core rule of Champions since 2nd edition at least (pretty sure it was in 1st edition too).

Somethings I don't bother trying to model in Hero. The droids walking across a hallway though active blaster fire is just one of them. It's just the filmmaker's way to point out how droids don't matter beyond being expensive property. They never did the same thing again in other films, so I would just not bother.

One thing that I think that this discussion of Deflection is missing is that Hero is a Toolkit. That not all of the rules are used in every circumstance. Which is why the Deflection rules are pretty "GM's option" when it comes to being able to deflect stuff without the power or a "focus". Perhaps Block should have a similar GM's Option esp for blocking Killing attacks or Big Normal Attacks.

So In some campaigns it may make sense for everyone to be able to deflect all missiles. Other campaigns it doesn't make sense at all. Others are middle of the road where PCs can deflect some things and not others. In all cases buying the power should override the campaign default, ie a Fantasy Shield spell which deflects magical projectile spells, but fighters couldn't buy the power.

Yeah well if i hit the lotto I'll get 6th ed

You can't afford $40?

You've never tried to teach a total novice baseball, I can tell.  Sometimes they roll a 3.  After a while they learn the skill (pay the points) and can do it.  But that's not all!  In Hero you can deflect an Arrow, which is nearly impossible for a human being even with massive training.  Oh, then there are things like missiles and bullets which is literally impossible for anyone to do at any level of training.  But hey, that's not a skill in 6th edition!  Its just something everyone can do!  If the GM says so -- no rules on what happens if he says "no" and you want special training to do it.

Sure they turn to the page of the right power and spend 20pts for Deflection. bought as a "super skill" damn isn't it wonderful that we have such a complete game that things of nearly everything?

Throw a ball at someone who has spent absolutely no time playing baseball or hitting things with a stick and see how well he does at it.  once in a while he'll roll a 3 and tag it.  Billy Baseball spent points to learn a skill, that's why league minimum is $500,000 a year for MLB.

 

Normal people cannot deflect things thrown at them, so normal people ought not get the skill for free.

Sure they can. It's much easier to deflect something thrown at you than to hit it with a 3' long piece of wood less than 5" wide. People do it all of the time. It's called Catching.

Now something going faster than a throw becomes harder, but as a gm you can adjust the difficulty if you are running a realistic game, for someone to deflect arrows and such.

Found the rule, couldn't delete the post.

Blocking ranged attacks. That's something that should be discussed with the GM during Session Zero. Find out what they think about the whole thing.

I think that the reason there are so many caveats is that Hero is also played at the non-superheroic level. So the rules always have to keep that in mind. For me if I were running Champions I wouldn't worry about it much. I would just flat allow any PC that wants to deflect a ranged attack to do it. For a Heroic level game, I would be less likely to allow it at all. It depends on the genre. For fantasy I might allow wizards to deflect spells if they had a spell with a similar effect (ie damage vs damage). For a Military Game, I probably wouldn't allow it at all, unless it really made sense or the character/campaign was built for it (ie an insane GunKata game I would allow it).

IMHO it makes sense to allow PCs to deflect without a special power. It's something that you see in a ton of different genres. I like that PC's don't have to spend points for it. I guess you COULD make a heroic character buy WF Deflection and For Martial arts. Weapon Element (ranged block). YMMV

Whoops no delete either

 

The cost of DEX relative to other things

 

1. Skill levels vs buying a stat, the skill levels should always cost more if you are trying to replicate the stat.  Why?  Because the skill level mechanic is not designed to replace the stat.  It is more like a stat with a limitation. It's like saying "I buy 10d6 EB only vs fire characters for (-1/2) and 10d6 EB only vs cold characters for (-1/2) and then complaining it cheaper to buy just 10d6 of EB."  Yes, it is, you should just buy energy blast.   HERO doesn't guarantee every build of a power or ability to cost the same just that there is some semblance of point balance.  Even if the point balance is a little off, its much better than it was before when Strength gave you figured stats.
2. The value of a stat really can change based on the campaign.  A campaign where there is a lot of detective work and investigation, INT is too cheap.  In a game where there is lots of explosions and people are diving for cover a lot.  DEX is too cheap. It is situational.  But what we know is that Steve costed DEX based on its combat value, most probably from a Champions point of view due to historical and sales reasons.  Many games value initiative and perception, and HERO does too.  Perception matters for surprise, but once the villain is known, unless there are tons of flashes, darkness, or invisibility, once you spot a target, you generally don't lose sight of the target.  But your initiative always stays the same (barring drains and the like) through a combat

Dex is costed out at 2pts because the Majority of Skills use Dex as their controlling stat. This makes Dex a very important stat. As does more than one combat maneuver (ie Dive For Cover), Also dex rolls are made for many many situations that aren't covered by skills. That alone probably makes Dex worth 2pts a pip. The other thing that dex does is initiative and that on top of all of the many other things that Dex does makes it worth the 2pts per pip.

So yeah you can buy a ton of skill levels that you have to apply to each circumstance you use that skill. You hope that you don't need to use dex for another reason in the same phase. Which is something that can and will happen.

I don't do fumbles at all or auto fails. I hate them

I in Combat a 3 or rolling less than half you needed to hit. I give +4 DCs on your attack. Max Damage was WAY too powerful. Also there's not supposed to be absolutes in the system

OOC I just give them the next best thing that a good roll would give them. IT's a bit more up in the air and open to my interpretation and ideas.

People always talk about the "page count difference between 5e and 6e"  Most of that page count is in larger font, more artwork in the book, A change to the layout, Sample characters, and Genre essays.. Also the heavier paper in 6e1 and 6e2 contributed to it being in 2 volumes. Pretty much the only things that changed between the editions were some powers. When you really look at the page count difference between 6e's books and 5er you find that they really AREN'T that different.

So the peeps that complained about the size and cost of the hardcover 6e books now have Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete.

Here's how I see the editions:

 

4th: simple layout but organized, unites different Hero products into one system, excellent support and source materials, adventures, etc.

5th: organizes better and more clearly creates one system to run all genres under, adds some great new features for build concepts and fixes some problems with past editions

6th: streamlines character creation and increases flexibility, gives exhaustive rules and examples for every situation. Excellent third party support.

you missed an edition

5er: Still organized great and has the fixes of 5th but gives exhaustive rules and examples for every situation. Has great Hero Games support with a ton of supplements and Genre books.

Champions Complete. Has the Character design Options of 6e, but has a more simple layout and organization. Fewer Edge Case rulings and examples. Simplifies some powers. Is 6e just edited down into something easier to digest.