atlascott

Re: My first Terran Empire Campaign idea...

Make sure the PC's understand that nanobots have been implanted in their brains which allow Mr. X to track them wherever they go, and begin eating their brains when he tocuhes...this...button.

Then, allow them to discovery more and more info on Mr. X, to discover what a total b@st$rd he is, and let them figure out a way to get rid of the nanobots.

Stellar radiation flying too near a blue dwarf? Radiation only found in a comet's tail? As a result of black market procedure performed by a legendary and reclusive surgeon?

Sounds like a nice start tome! Have fun!

Scott:thumbup:

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

"You're accepting all the lovely stuff that came in Unearthed Arcana as non-broken? "

Unearthed Arcana shoulda remained buried.

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

"Unless you grab a setting. If you make a unique setting with a unique magic system for D&D, you have to do the same. if you say, 'no, just use whats in the book'..I point you to the FH books."

Okay, but have you READ the FH settings? Incomplete, unbalanced, hastily cobbled together--in a word, pathetic, when you compare them to, say, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. I was excited by the prospect of FH settings. I bought both FH settings. Read them, and realized they were utter non-starters.

D&D has a magic system in place, and all the mechanics for the entire game in place. I am not crazy about some of the mechanics, but there really is no comparing them.

It looks like FH hardcover isnt a new edition--just a reprint of the soft cover. WHY is that enticing?

I love HERO for supers. Hands down the best. For sword and sorcery, its a trainwreck.

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

1st Edition AD&D wins.

d20/3rd Ed/2.5 Ed. stinks. The main problem is that their character progression/prestige class concept is terribly broken. We will see what 4th Ed has to offer.

Fantasy HERO is pretty terrible. It's really not a fair fight. The other game systems are actual systems and compelte games. With FH, you, the gamer, have to design, playtest, and implement the entire game using the HERO system metarules, including designing and implementing an entire magic system, and balance it against other forms of damage dealing. Last-gen FH stuff is basically junk--broken bits stitched together in a Frankenstein mish-mash whose apologists justify by calling it a 'toolkit.' The success and proliferation of simpler games proves conclusively that a do it yourself and ruin your campaign as you constantly tweak and change the rules type toolkit is NOT what plays want.

HERO system cannot do a decent, traditional, D&D/ Arduin/Warhammer FRP magic system. It's either too powerful, too weak, and a huge pain in the behind.

That said, I look forward to buying the new FH to see if they learned their lession or if it is more of the same.

Re: ". . . Just a face in the crowd, even when it's all alone."

If someone photographs him, is a single image seen every time, or does this cat actually change in appearance? My guess is that this effect is something that happens in an area effect around the targets and in their minds. A type of limited mind control would be the most efficient build imo.

Re: FH book compatability

Will not be compatible. In fact, the whole system is being re-written for use with d7's which, in addition to being one more than d6, are also more lucky...

good one

This is a pretty weird one, so bear with me...

What about a spell which causes a ball of fire to issue from the hand of the caster, moving towards a target, and exploding in an area effect?

This is a real game imbalancing spell, so use with caution, because it combines a range attack and area of effect with the element of fire.

Re: Furious Counterstrike

How about buying a naked advantage moving incoming damage down the time chart? See p. 244-245, FrED.

I don't have time right now to sit down and figure it out but my guess is you buy a group naked advantage (to account for Max campaign DC STUN and Killing damage) apply the extra time, 1 Turn disadvantage, consider it an advantage +1 1/4, deduct the difference between a maximum DC attack in the game from the cost of a maximum DC attack with a plus 1 1/4 modifier, and the difference is the cost to defer the damage 1 turn (post segment 12). You might want to buy it down to zero end as well, depending. What do you think?

Anyone do this in your game? How do you handle the net?

Re: FH Gripes

I am ashamed. I used to 'think in HERO' so well. Now, shoot, after reading the recent posts in the forum, I could slap my damned forehead.

I think an EC with END reserve/slow recovery is EXACTLY what I have been trying to do with magic all along. It might take some balancing. I might do without the EC. Could cause too much point shaving, but it would also allow characters to get new spells more frequently.

I am going to re-read the END reserve rules as soon as I get home from work...

Re: FH Gripes

I agree--Combat Luck cannot stack with worn armor in a Fantasy game or everyone is going to buy it for its utility, rather than for character conception reasons.

Dude, of course werewolves have 'nads.

Hunters typically refer to a 'vitals' shot as one that hits the heart and lungs and essentially ensures a kill with one shot.

I am leaning strongly towards a campaign rules revision, and allowing PC's to redesign their characters with applied experience, and maybe another 5 point bribe to quell the objections. They might actually enjoy re-imagining their PC's with more experience with the system under their belt.

After using a version of the "Vanican" magic system, I am strongly considering just making spellcasters buy a INT based spell casting skill, and then buy spells individually, but all with a mandatory 2x END and no less than -1 in limitations which have to come from a short list (including gestures, incantations, extra time, etc.). You can get alot of versatility for 30 points. Or a few pretty tough offensive spells and still a fair amount of versatility. The END will ensure that in any given combat, the spellcaster is going to have to choose spells intelligently and not just blast away. The limitations mean that the spells come with a risk of failure.

THis is also a hell of alot easier for me to track--once I approve a spell, he can use it, and he just tracks END. No more points counting to make sure he doesn't go over a daily point quota.

Overall there will be less versatility than using a VPP. But I will be able to track the spells, what they do, etc., easier that way.

I even toyed with the idea of requiring the use of a wand or staff for all spells. I like the idea of material components, but alot of the material components in the FHG are so expensive and esoteric, I cannot imagine there ever being many spells cast. A pinch of sulfur is one thing, but a custom-made idol of gold wrapped in the vestment of a disgraced priest? That's pretty tough kind of stuff for mundane spells, and it places a financial burden on spellcasters which isnt really fair.

Re: FH Gripes

Never mind. You don't want a discussion, you just want to bash the system and pick and choose bits and pieces of points of posts that are convenient.

 

Very well. FH Hero is completely broken and all copies should be burned in order to save mankind. You have won. :hail:

I am not bashing the system, I am requesting advice and feedback, and I applaud your efforts at misrepresenting.

I am not interested in 'winning' or 'bashing the system'--just making conversation and hoping to benefit from the experience of others.

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I am trying to beat you up.

Re: FH Gripes

Oh, I am not trying to say you do or did any thing wrong. And I am not trying to say that you don't know what you are wanting to do in your game. But I am saying that the defaults for a "normal" are pretty well defined, both by the rules, FH and the myriad of other supplements by example.

 

I am countering your very specific comments 3a, 4 and 5. You state that these mean that FH is essentially "broken" because the rules are not in "black and White". Well they are.

 

For 3a there are many books for FH with many many standard write ups. How can the FH troll be too powerful or too weak. It is the standard FH troll. It is it's standard. If your conception of a Troll is bigger, that is your conception, not theirs. Neither is wrong. In one RPG a Fairy is a 6 inch tall tinkerbell, in another it is a 6 foot tall elf like being. Which fairy is the "correct" one? In a "standard" FH game where 90% of the warriors will have a STR between 12-16, a troll with a STR of 35 is a combat monster.

 

For 4, you have chosen to not use the "limiters" that keep FH at the "standard" FH power setting. NCM is simply a cost bump rather than a limit. PC's are allowed to purchase Talents and Power applications as if they were simple skills. This has completely eliminated the "standard" FH supplements value for you. Again, this is not anything "bad" or "wrong". But it isn't their fault you decided to follow you own direction.

 

And for 5, if you retain the built in limiters (NCM, weapon damage lims, etc), then FH combat isn't long, it is short and vicious.

 

All the rules and guidelines are written in black and white and very very visible. If you choose to not use the recommended guidelines that is great. I deviate all the time. But if things don't work out it is my problem, not the system I altered.

 

I think a lot of the comments you are perceiving as criticism of you as a GM, are more a response to the way you made your statements. (of course with my vast talent > in writing I shouldn't say much )

 

For example, the whole thing about the high strength and a 5D6 normal sword as an example of how FH has no controls or balance. When the controls are pointed out, the response is that you just don't use NCM (control #1) and we aren't actually discussing "normal" at all. We are discussing a warrior with supernatural abilities (Talent Deadly Blow).

 

If you remove the brakes from your car, don't blame the manufacturer and call the car defective when you crash.

 

Once again, I really have no opinion on whether you game is good or bad, and cannot have any clue about you as a GM. But every single example you gave consisted of FH is broken because of X, and when the solution Y is pointed out, you say that Y is simply a suggestion that you don't use and therefore it is broken.

 

I'm just saying.

I would primarily repeat what I said about there being options, but no real approved approach sanctioned as 'official' in many aspects of FH, and mention that while the rules are, indeed, printed in black and white, theur effect in game is not--a FH game requires alot more decisions pre-campaign than many other games and the consequences of those decisions are not as obvious as I believe you are making them out to be.

I dont think I ever said FH was broken--just that the pre-campaign decisions without obvious consequences pre-play are a mixed blessing at best.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think you understand my points.

Re: FH Gripes

Also, the rules in FH for Deadly Blow SPECIFICALLY state that it adds the the BASE DAMAGE of the weapon, as AmadanNaBriona wrote. Actually, I couldn't believe it. FH p. 106 "The damage added by Deadly Blow counts as base damage. That means it not only increases the damage a character's weapon does, it also improves his ability to increase the weapon's damage further via STR, COmbat Skill Levels, Combat Maneuvers, and the like."

Re: FH Gripes

Deadly Blow is a part of the Paladin Package Deal. Completely reasonable to allow a character to take a talent which appears in a package deal for the type of character they want to play. I neve dealt with it before, and so when it became part of the game, I found it to be tremendously imbalancing, and, as others have commiserated, it is hard to put the cat back in the bag without player dissatisfaction.

And to be fair, I think allowing a talent which appears in a Package Deal list is a far cry from allowing a flying pixie fairy with a Holy Avenger.

Please try to be more charitable in your asessments.

Re: FH Gripes--NEW IDEA

How well do you guys think it would float if I mandated character redesign with all house rules in place now? The advantage for PC's is that they now have a better idea of how the game runs, and I have now hammered out alot of what I want the game to be about and how I want things to work (and I do not think Deadly Bow is going to be allowed at its current price point).

I am going to eliminate Package Deals and just create lists of typical powers/abilities/disadvantages for the various races/professions and let them customize as they see fit.

One area that still irks me is--how do you guys handle Skill Levels, esp CSL's? WOW can they be powerful. DO you guys use a hard cap? SOmething tied to atrribute? Escalating costs?

What do you think?

Re: FH Gripes

Agreed...I do have a problem with letting one character be more awesome than all the rest...Are you having problems with one or two characters outshining the rest or are you having difficulty challenging the group at its current level?

The former is the larger problem as I see it. And I DID catch him mis-applying the STR min to his weapon of choice, and I did modify it down from 5dk to 4d6. I even caught the snow elf not tracking how many 'points' worth of spells he was casting in a 'day'. But the main issue is one guy who HAS to figure out a way to be a killing machine if a party that is otherwise more or less balanced. I means, he typically does twice the damage on an average blow than any other fighter-type in the group--something wrong there. But then again, there are disadvantages to wearing heavy armor...not having tough mental defenses...etc.

Re: FH Gripes

Incorrect. NCM is defined as "an upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans." and 20 is the maximum Str for a human per the charts. The system has a mechanism to allow higher stat progression if the GM allows it.

 

Key words IF THE GM ALLOWS IT.

 

For instance, if the characters father was non-human or maybe of supernatural origin. Hercules has greater than 20 because dad was a God. and so on.

 

A human in a heroic game with a Str higher than 20 has exceeded the possible. The only way to do so is to use magic, technological assists, bio-augmentation or the GM choosing to ignore human maximums. All legal in the system. But don't blame the system because you chose to ignore the guidlines.

First, every rule has the implied caveat, "If the GM allows it"

Second, straight from the book "Normal Characteristic Maxima: An upper limit on the Characteristics of normal humans. Beyond this limit they must pay double to increase their Characteristics."

Finally, and this is not JUST directed at you, but I am loving how there are alot of posts here that simply conclude that it is my lack of skills/knowledge/common sense/judgment/etc. that is the cause of [insert problem here]. I've been doing this (running games--usually long-term, successful and fun campaigns) for the last 20 years. I'm open to new ideas and advice, but it just kinda comes off as mean when the innuendo is that I am a dummy. I mean, it may be true, but be nice, fer gosh sakes!

Re: FH Gripes

"That means 20 is the ultimate maximum for any human."

Nope, Normal Maxima means costs doubler beyond the Maximum, not that no one can HAVE a higher stat.

Re: FH Gripes

The main perpetrator doesn't really have a 40 STR--dramatic license, don't you know! 28, I think? It cost him alot of points. 2d6 killing weapon, doubled for strength, with "Mighty Strike" or whatever 'perq' in the FH book--alakazam, you have a 5d6 killing attack, using non-esoteric, standard rules. Nothing too munchkin about taking rules as written. Of course, I do not let him use double strength or large weapons in small corridors. And I forbade him spending 100 gold to commission the creation of a telephone pole-sized sword. So then, he just adds as many CSL as possible so that is can hit almost anyone, even if they are Dodging. Then he discovered Sweep...but was not thrilled with the END consequences.

If you take 8 PDr as plate armor/max armor as written, this guy slices thru anything

I really agree with the fellow who said that--if you have a player or players like this, they are going to find a loophole or weakness in any system.

I think there are alot of awesome suggestions on this list. Thanks all who have responded.

Our most combat effective character is a Halfling with a high DEX and SPD and magic armor. Even if you CAN hit him, the magic armor helps.

Our best conception is a Snow Elf Drow Slayer. Combat effective but with a small magic pool. The player is frustrated because he is not great guns as magic goes, but is also less effective in combat. Can't have it all, tho, and his versatility is superb.

Re: FH Gripes

...but do you really want to be dragged into an arms race? (Note: there is no perfectly balanced system that I am aware of.) Maybe I am misunderstanding you' date=' but it sounds like you are frustrated with your powergamers and not so much with the system.[/quote']

 

You are pretty observant. I always played 'character concept' and then applied the rules to it. But with years of rules-exploiting other systems, my players are of the most common variety, I think. They want their characters to advance, become more effective, or as effective as possible for points spent. And really, I cannot blame them. After all, isn't it more fun to run a rules-optimized character than an inefficiently built character with fewer options? The average gamer will always take a STR 20 fighter over a STR 13. Being exceptional is part of the fun. Advancing your character is alot of the fun. I think this is the way the vast majority of gamers feel, even if they are not as obsessed with it as a couple of my players are.

 

With as many possilbe options, combat maneuvers, Perks and Powers, package deals, etc., Skills, and so on, you have the most flexible system out there. I love the HERO system. But in a particular genre, the consequences of allowing many of the options do not become obvious until its too late. Presumably, this is why genre specific rules systems are play tested--for balance. There is none of that in FH. Players hate it when you renege on allowing a maneuver, rule, power, or perk. And I guess I cannot blame them too much.

After running FH for about 1 1/2 years, here are my observations:

1. It's alot of work--alot more work than any other fantasy genre game. It has to do with having to make some important, complex rules decisions the consequences of which cannot be obvious until you are running the game, namely--magic system, caps on stats, caps on skill levels, standard values for weapons damage, armor value, use of shields (DCV bonus or extra armor with activation), balancing armor/defenses with attack damage, balancing magic damage with regular killing damage. There are several others.

2. You can use whatever source materials you want, and if you are familair with the HERO system, conversion on the fly or with minimal prep time is a breeze. This has to do with knowing what DCV you party can hit, and knowing how much armor they are capable of penetrating. Point blank, you cannot present them with opponents they cant hit, or cannot damage.

3. The objective books--like the monster and enemy books--are perhaps the least valuable in FH, because there is no official approach to anything in FH--from armor to weapons to magic or anything else. A troll in a FH book could be too powerful in your game, or not powerful enough as written. You might be better off buying some other company's book, because they are more detailed in description,motivations, etc.

3. The HERO produced FH settings are not compelling to me or my players, and the campaign books for each are not comprehensive and do not share the production values or comprehensiveness of say, Wizard's Forgotten Realms for even 15 years ago. I run in a setting of my own, which I never got around to fully fleshing out.

4. IF you are running a game with typical gamers, you'll have at least one or two in the group that are constantly going to be maxing skill level, speed, strength, and will look to buy custom, larger and larger weapons so that they can Sweep with a 5d6 k weapon--and their high CSL's means they'll be capable for 3 routine kills per phase (with tough consquences for END, but END is cheap). I have combatted this primarily by making each increment of 5 points in each characteristic double in price past 15. In other words, buying STR from 10 to 15 costs 10 points. To buy it from 15 to 20 costs 20 pts. 20 to 25 costs 40. Players will buy CHAR that they really want, but you will not soon have 40STR guys running around all over the place. It will keep DEX and Sppeds within a reasonable range. This screws with the "Package Deals" however and you'll have to either change point costs for them or allow normal prices to apply for CHAR bought in a package deal.

5. To keep combat from dragging on forever, eliminate the phase 12 automatic recovery. If someone wants to recover, they have to sacrifice an action.

6. You MUST enforce END use. It is the best way to keep everyone relevant in combat.

Anyway, some of my players chafe at my campaign rules, but seem to accept rules that are in black and white in a book, so some have become frustrated with this rules system.

Anyone else run something longer term and have any advice to add about making HERO system rules work in the FH genre?

Re: Ran my first FH session... some questions

"...are there drawbacks?"

Sure, the most obvious being that your wizard needs alot of experience points to buy a new spell, and ultra slots are all or nothing--purely one speall at a time, typically, which doesn't mimic magic in D&D or fantasy literature very well. And, his 8 spells are about it--not alot of variety.

I personally think that running a Fanasty Hero is a real chore. Im doing it now.

As soon as you get armor balanced out, someone keep increasing strength so that they can use a bigger weapon to do more damage. Then, they buy Deadly Blow (+1d6 killing damage.) On the other end, they buy comabt luck (3rPD/3rED) and everyone wants to follow suit, so now instead of everyone walking around in 8 rPD field plate, everyone effectively has 11 rPD. No now short swords and long swords have virtually no chance at getting through defenses.

And, if you use hit locations, you have a very, very deadly game, with the damage multipliers. Gritty and realistic, but deadly, and most people do not want a fantasy game with that sort of thing.

Same thing with skill levels. "Okay, I am buying 4 OCV only skills levels." So now, the 6 OCV is transformed to a 10, and the character can hit almost anything but a ninja...and if you throw a hard to hit opponent at the group, only the one guy has any chance at hitting the enemy.

I have a really great snow elf character with limited spell casting ability based on a VPP and learned spells with an INT based spell roll. Great conception, and he bought alot of background skills. But he cannot buy spells to make him effective enough to justify the cost, bc his poll is low powered, so he cannot cast the tougher stuff, and even though he is a Drow slayer, he is medicre in combat compared to the rest.

Contrast that with your typicall battle machine. Has to have the thickest armor, biggest weapon, highest strenth, most skill levels. No one else in the group can keep up with him.

ANother problem with running Fantasy Hero is the legacy idea of classes. There are certain things that everyone expects a Paladin to be able to do. No Paladin built on 75 + 75 is going to be able to do HALF of what makes a Paladin a Paladin.

As I have said before, Fantasy Hero could really benefit from an official game world with an official approach to magic, weapons, armor, etc. The campaign books so far are woefully inadequate. I just do not thin HERO system does sword and scorcery fantasy very well.

It seems that every session, some new problems occur, new imbalances become obvious. We;re having fun, which is the bottom line, but it is 3x the work to run Fantasy Hero than it would be run D&D of any flavor.

Problems

1. Too much work to create a game world to play in and not a sufficiently fleshed out "Classic" official High Fantasy world to play in.

2. Magic system that never quite fits precisely into the rules, if you want a standard D20 conversion, and no good way to classify/categorize spells. First levels spells from d20 costs all over the map in their HERO system iteration.

3. Need to place hard caps or to use aggressive cost doubling on skill levels to prevent PC's from having a +20 OCV modifier.

4. No more than double killing damage for weapons meaning that you do more damage with bare strength than you can with a longsword at relatively modest strength levels. But a Perk (Might Blow or something) at 10pts adds 1d6 killing to the base damage of the weapn. Meaning, 20 points buys you a dirk which does more base damage than a sword, and doubles its damage at a much lower strength level.

5. Much harder for new player to make a character than in a level based system.

6. Very very few modules or ready made adventures available.

7. Package deals do not include powers typically associated with a "character class" (e.g., no ability to turn undead for clerics, and no good way to build it to mimic d20, if you wanted to).

Good Stuff

1. Utter character flexibility for the experienced gamer ( the flip side to it being tough for a newb).

2. Easy for GM to gauge power levels based on point system.

3. More linear character progression means it is easier to adjust challenge of a scenario--no one doubles effectiveness from scenario to scenario (the bane of d20, imo).

4. No thousand-customized-prestige-classes to buy, learn, or memorize. Reading a character sheet is all that is required, no looking thru 40 supplements to find an obscure Prestige class.

5. Most creatures, powers, abilities, are easily built or even run off the cuff by an experienced Hero system GM.

6. If someone gets bored by their build, it is very, very easy to allow somone to rebuild their character into something else using the same point total. For example, a snow elf assassin mage was bored with magic, and wanted to get more proficient in fighting, so he was stripped of his magic due to a planned in game event. No question about his power level as a fighter-assasin, bc we already know how many build points he has.

7. Easy for an experienced Hero GM to mod any fantasy themed scenario using the hero system--beforehand or on the fly.

Re: Cylon Resurrection

I do not know whether I would even define it using the game rules--instead, I would make it an accepted feature of the race that does not really need to be statted out.

But that is positively blaphemous!

What about teleportation of appropriate range (conciousness only) triggered by "Character Body Reaches -1 or less" with a further limitation "only works if resurrection ship is within x distance" and for fiarness, you'd probably have to throw in some Regeneration, because although we do not know how long the download procedure is, the Cylon wakes up with full BODY, or so it would appear. Another limitation could be that the teleportation causes disorientation (perhaps bought as negative overall skill levels which fade) and the Cylon awakens with Zero END.