slaughterj

I use a heroic action point based system for complications rather than point values. If I step on a complication in a scenario the character gets an HAP. I also give them for the usual swath of HAP reasons. On occasion I've allowed players to burn an HAP to avoid complications kicking in.

I think that will be my approach in the future.  Then one doesn't need to assess frequency (and typically get it wrong) for the various disads like hunted, vulnerability, etc., - if it comes up, you get awarded appropriately, based on the actual frequency.

Heck while I usually give them body/Stun and Defenses. Usually guards are a type of Mook and become One hit and 2 Hit opponents.

I do something similar, using some old Hero rule about impairing/disabling, and take them out if they take 1/2 Body from a single hit.

Guards are easy to design.

 

Just take a base human template.  Slap the bonuses from a package deal (template) on it (Fighter typically), equip them with some basic gear and you are good to go.

Yep, so easy that I usually wouldn't design them at all, just know in my head what OCV/DCV, Body/Stun, PD/ED, Armor Type, and Weapon they have and be done, takes no time at all and nothing to even write down, but it is handy to look at write-ups to see what else interesting might be worth considering sometimes.

For Fantasy write-ups, check MMM again -- in the back of the book, there's Human Adversaries.

Thanks, I'll check again.

Thanks, found combination skills and other ways to buy lots of background skills in Ultimate Skill, it isn't quite what I was hoping for, but I may be able to make something of it.

At times the skills in Hero can be a bit narrow (e.g., Bugging / Security Systems / Electronics / Systems Operations), are there some optional rules somewhere to broaden or narrow the skill list for diffferent settings?  (E.g., MnM had similar variations from its base list in a gamemaster supplement.)

Just started flipping through a few books lately, e.g., the 2 main 6e books, 5e fantasy hero, MMM, etc., looking for stats for typical fantasy town guards, scifi troopers, etc., but not having good luck, any suggestions on where to look appreciated.

Follow-up from this posted Q&A: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/89274-multiple-attack-combined-attack-off-hand-punch-and-autofire/

6E2 74 says "COMBINED ATTACK Using two or more powers or similar abilities (but not Combat/Martial Maneuvers or the like) once against a single target isn’t a Multiple Attack. It’s a Combined Attack, and counts as type of Strike."

(Strike is a Combat Maneuver and thefore noted not able to be used to make a Combined Attack, yet the combination of two powers/abilities counts as a type of Strike - that just seems a bit odd...)

6E2 80 says "STRIKE This is the basic attack Maneuver. It includes attacks such as punches, kicks, elbow smashes, headbutts, attacks with weapons, firing a gun or a longbow, and just about any other way a character can hit another character."

1.  Just to clarify, one can't use Strength via a Strike to punch once with each hand as a Combined Attack (since that would be a Strike, thus a Combat Maneuver, and theefore can't be a Combined Attack), so could one pick up two knives (knives being Killing Attack power with no range), clubs (clubs being Hand-to-Hand Attack power), thrown rocks (Hand-to-Hand Attack power with Range), or two pistols (Ranged Killing Attack power) and make a Combined Attack, or would that be a Strike (all those are powers yet still fall into the definition of Strike)?  Does it matter if Strength is involved or not?  Does it matter if the power is bought as Equipment or not?

2.  Are melee or ranged attacks used in a Combined Attack that are based on a power or ability somehow not Strikes?  (If all attacks are Strikes (or some other Combat Maneuver), the rule about no Combat Maneuvers being usable for Combined Attacks would seem to result in Combined Attack not being possible.)

3.  Or can only powers which are not Equipment be used for Combined Attack (somehow the powers' attacks not being a Strike, though they would seem to fall into "about any other way a character can hit another character")?

It seems like all attacks for damage or effect are technically Strikes (if not some other Combat Maneuver), effectively making Combined Attacks impossible if the Combat Maneuver rule applied.  Any clarity on what is not a Strike or other Combat Maneuver yet is still an attack on another character with a power or ability that can be used to make a Combined Attack would be appreciated.

Damage Field automatically applies damage to anyone who touches the Damage Field character, so if another person with Ranged Touch is within range and perceives (with their touch sense) the Damage Field character, wouldn't that mean the person with Ranged Touch automatically takes the Damage Field damage?

Could the Ranged Touch character turn off the sense?  One can't turn off touch normally, and takes some effort to turn off hearing (cover ears) or smell (hold nose), though a little earlier for seeing (just shut eyes).

If they could turn off the sense somehow, presumably they could not be selective about it generally (e.g., turn off the sense to the extent it is touching the Damage FIeld character, but continue to touch everywhere else)?

The above generally assumes 360 degree touch, though I understand one might just have 120 degree touch and then rotate that cone away from the Damage Field character.

Here are some questions about Multiple Attack, Combined Attack, etc. (possibly asked before but I couldn't find an answer):

1.  In a Heroic level campaign, if someone wishes to punch a single foe once with each fist in a phase, can you confirm if that would be a Combined Attack with the Off Hand penalty applied to the off hand punch, i.e., not a Multiple Attack?  (Presuming (a) the GM is applying the fairness/realism aspect of Off Hand to punches and ( the GM is not applying Multiple Attach rules to Combined Attack such that all attacks would be considered made with the character's good hand.)

2.  Presumably the same rules would apply if a combatant was holding 2 knives and stabbing a single foe or holding 2 guns and shooting a single foe once with each?

3.  Presumably Two Weapon Fighting is not needed for the above situation, because it is a Combined Attack rather than a Multiple Attack?

4.  Other than Penalty Skill Levels, is there any skill or talent that counters the 1/2 DCV penalty from using the various Autofire Skills or making a Multiple Attack?

By way of comparison, punching a single foe once with each fist in a phase:

1.  If a Combined Attack:  No penalty on main punch, -3 OCV on off hand punch (unless have Ambidexterity), no DCV penalty, takes 1/2 phase.

2.  If a Multiple Attack:  -2 OCV on each punch (and if miss the first, don't get the second swing), 1/2 DCV, takes full phase (unless have Rapid Attack).

As a Combined Attack, it is clearly far superior.

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

I hadn't read that bit yet in 6e; thanks for pointing it out. In our games the house rule was if you can maintain the grab with casual STR then you didn't suffer any combat penalties beyond having your arms occupied' date=' although it could be somewhat situational. Lois Lane might not have any chance of breaking away from Superman (as if she'd want to) but she doesn't exactly fit into the palm of his hand either and could get in the way in some circumstances.[/quote']

 

Presumably Superman's casual strength would push her around like humans pushing around dust and wouldn't amount to meaningful combat penalties though. Even with the optional rule, -2 to DCV is still a pretty significant penalty.

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

On a slightly different note, if you look at real world martial arts (and the HERO manuevers for them) you will notice that there is no emphasis on having a good defensive position while being grappled, because by definition if you are in a hold you are in a bad position. Rather the focus is getting free. That is why a Martial Escape manuever just gives you +15 STR for breaking the grab, but doesn't affect you DCV. Once you are free, then you can deal with your attacker on equal footing. So if you want a character who is a good grappler, either buy him a Wrestling package or buy him extra STR, only for grapple manuevers.

But Hero has to deal significantly with Champions, where people often have substantially different strengths. For instance, it would be silly to see Superman at 1/2 DCV for grabbing Lois Lane. I see from the quote above that 6e finally (hadn't seen it before in Hero) an option to somewhat address this situation:

"At the GM’s option, if the Grabber’s STR is 20 or more points higher than the Grabbed character’s STR, change the penalties to the following:

Grabber:

•-2 DCV against all attackers (including Grabbed character)

•Full OCV against the Grabbed character

•-1 OCV against other targets (if attacks are possible at all)"

Though I question whether Superman would have any penalties at all while grabbing Lois Lane (maybe that is a 40 STR point differential optional rule to consider), as it would be much like any of us holding a dead snake, flops around a little, but doesn't actually interfere in any way.

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

You know' date=' +5 with HTH Combat [i']does in fact offset[/i] quite a bit of that 1/2 DCV.

 

And +5 with (Grabbing Maneuvers) would only be 15 points, yes? It doesn't negate the halving, but it certainly makes your 1/2 DCV much higher than it would have been

But would those work when grabbing AND when being grabbed?

Re: HERO System Bestiary

Thanks, I'll probably get it with a print and PDF package rather than rush for the PDF, seemed like creatures shouldn't really have changed, but with CV decoupled and killing damage not requiring at least 1 rDef, there might be some updates, and more creatures is always good.

Re: Action Order

If you're looking for an ability that changes when opponents act (Minor paralytic effects - nerve strikes' date=' poison gasses etc, Distractions - optical flashes, peripheral issusions) you should look at Drain or Change Environment (not specifically listed but certainly in the spirit of the power - probably at the 2-3 point level)[/quote']

 

Ah, so a Drain Dex may have an effect for multiple rounds of temporarily lowering action order, that's a good alternate example.

Re: Action Order

Don't forget that if you share your next phase with someone you've successfully blocked' date=' you go before him that phase regardless of DEX.[/quote']

 

I believe in that case you basically jump up the Dex order (though if your foe has a higher Speed and therefore gets an action before you, that seems to not to be particularly useful - I guess you could just block again?).

 

For presence attacks, you delay the foe.

 

I'm guessing there are some other circumstances that shift one of these two ways, but it sounds like all of them are transient and nothing shifts permanently (not counting Lightning Reflexes, which is basically just limited Dex).

By default, people act in Dex order. Things like presence attacks, holding action, blocking, etc. can change that order.

What all can change the order?

Does the order return to Dex order thereafter, or what?

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

Being attacked by multiple opponents does not' date=' by itself, halve your DCV. +1 DCV would be sufficient for a significant effect in many situations.[/quote']

 

Since being attacked by multiple opponents does not halve DCV, obviously I must have meant something else I'm talking about the 1/2 DCV when you make Multiple Attacks.

Re: Multiple Attack

1.) Combined attack is really meant for things like compound powers (Linked' date=' Unified, etc.). [/quote']

 

Linked already pulls things together its own way, so it doesn't seem Combined attack is really meant for it. Plus, look at the text example, a robot has two different guns, one on each arm, which it can use to blast away once each on a single foe. To some degree, it makes sense in that you spent all those points, so you should be able to use them, but on the other hand, when you make an attack, that ends your turn, and this seems to flaunt that.

 

In games where Two-Handed Fighting is used' date=' IMO it would make sense for the GM to disallow a Combined Attack with two separate weapons (i.e. two attacks not built to be triggered together). You also can't use Combined Attack to target one opponent with one power and another opponent with the other; that's definitely going to require a Multiple Attack, Spreading, or an Autofire option.[/quote']

 

It just seems like an odd carve-out, there's all this trouble to explain Multiple Attack, to create the Two-Weapon Fighting skill, etc., and then to have Combined Attack available which moots all those penalties for the most basic version of Multiple Attack.

 

2.) While this is true' date=' why (as far as the rules go) would you use an inferior weapon in your second hand anyway? Using your example, why not wield a bastard sword in each hand, instead of a bastard sword in one hand and a knife in the other?[/quote']

 

Plenty of reasons, a knife is thrown which gives more options, you might only have access to those two weapons, you might want other benefits provided (long weapon keeps people at bay for the optional OCV variances by weapon length, while short weapon works when the foe moves in), etc.

 

This is a case where the GM may really have to play an active role in encouraging creativity' date=' and balancing the benefits. Although the drawback of not being able to hold something in your other hand (or use it to cast spells or whatever) may be enough, I personally do require that attacks must be balanced between both weapons in order to take advantage of the built-in bonus. Another thing to consider is allowing a character who uses different sized weapons to take the most advantageous bonus/penalty when considering difference in weapon length and cramped quarters.[/quote']

 

I would think that a GM wouldn't penalize a PC for using an inferior damaging weapon in the offhand, that's not as good for the PC already, why penalize them more by placing an extra limit on Two-Weapon Fighting? Plus, it is counter to some iconic concepts.

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

How about trying to stat out a Defensive Fighting "talent" for Multiple Attacks:

+2 DCV (effectively only +1 after the halving), Only to counter Multiple Attack DCV penalty (-1?)

Is -1 appropriate? Maybe it should be higher, e.g., -1.5 or -2, since this is just one of many possible DCV penalties? For comparison, what penalty would one assess to a more general Defensive Fighting talent like this:

+2 DCV, Only to counter DCV penalties (-.5? -1?)

Any other limitations warranted for either version?

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

One other comment to throw in, there is already an optional maneuver, Club Weapon, which basically converts Killing DCs to Normal. This is yet further evidence of their equivalence, which makes it questionable to have to blow a bunch of points into both Killing and STR to have the option to do both equivalently.

So I have some questions on Multiple Attack:

1. What's up with the Combined Attack on 6E2 74? Pretty much every conceivable Multiple Attack is described on 6E2 73, but then Combined Attack seems to be a big carved out hole for having 2 weapons and attacking once each against a single target not having any of the Multiple Attack penalties. This seems to largely devalue the benefit of buying Two-Weapon Fighting (and Offhand Fighting / Ambidexterity), sure it's still useful when attacking with two weapons against multiple targets, but not even necessary for two weapons against one target (except maybe if you were going to take multiple swings with one of those two weapons, pretty unlikely though). I might like this since wielding dual-weapons versus one larger two-handed weapon probably could use some boosting (since each dual weapon would hit for a little less individually after Defenses than one large weapon usually), but I want to confirm I understand this. But this does seem to overpromote multiple attacks, which could slow game play (e.g., in a Western Hero game, why not shoot with two pistols at the main bad guy, there's no combat penalty in doing so (sure, uses more charges, END possibly for STR Mins for wielding two guns, and the time it takes to draw both weapons)).

2. A strict read of Two-Weapon Fighting seems to require using two weapons, but doesn't seem to require an attack with each of those two weapons. Has that been clarified in any way? It allows you to skip the first -2 OCV penalty for doing Multiple Attacks, but let's say you have a Bastard Sword and a Knife - you could just attack twice with the Bastard Sword it seems to get the benefit (and even makes sense, since you are assumed to be attacking with your good hand, which presumably is holding the Bastard Sword). Alternatively, if you were going to attack with each of the 2 weapons against a single target, apparently you could just use Combined Attack and have no attack penalty anyway.

Re: Killing Damage in 6e

So why can't I buy 1d6 of Blast and add it to my 6d6 6 Defense Entangle to do 13 DC's? I paid for 12 DC's and then I paid for one more, so you are penalizing me for not letting me use them together. I paid for both powers.

 

I can use them together - as a Multiple Power Attack, doing 1d6 Blast and 6d6 6 DEF entangle. And there is no reason I can't do the same with a 1 point KA and a 12d6 Punch.

 

The "value" of 1 DC is questionable. 5 points spent on Blast gives you 1 DC which you can spread, and use at range. 5 points spent on STR gives you 1DC with no range or spreading, and some ancillary abilities like Lifting and Grabbing.

The Multiple Power Attack seems like another possible option. But the difference with STR and Killing attacks versus your example is the former are already able to stack in the system.

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

Well' date=' Desolidification is normally going to grant you "immunity" to most Grabs and Entangles, so you could possibly go with a very limited version of that to simply say, "I am not affected by the Grab/Entangle, except in every way other than it affecting my CV". Since that's a definite benefit in combat, though, some GMs may understandably make you use [i']Affects Physical World (+2)[/i] on any attack you could make in that mode.

Thanks, but I'm not looking at some sort of immunity to being grabbed, but rather something simple that represents a skilled grappler who isn't flat out exposed when he is doing his signature thing, i.e., grappling.

You could also go with Limited OCV and DCV (the Characteristics' date=' not CSLs). But yeah, they'll be halved in the applicable circumstances. And honestly, I think it's okay not to be able to get around that aspect of the system. It's meta-gaming IMO. If you really want to be able to avoid Grabs and Entangles, buy Strength, Martial Maneuvers, Contortionist, and/or use smart tactics to avoid them; if you really want to be unaffected by Surprise, buy something that keeps you from being Surprised (Danger Sense, or maybe just Perception bonuses). Those are the mechanisms in the system that are designed to take care of those situations.[/quote']

 

Surprise DCV halving is well-enough covered by Defense Maneuver, Danger Sense, etc., but the DCV halving or general Combat Maneuver penalties do not appear to get such treatment. I don't think it is metagaming to try to represent your character more effective through game mechanics, whether you are playing The Grappler (who should have an easy way to buy off grappling penalties), The Minotaur (who is particularly proficient in move-by/move-through maneuvers and should have an easy way to reflect that through buying off those penalties), etc. Maybe limited CV or limited skill levels is the solution? But for ones to buy off at least some of the halving aspect, that can still get pretty pricey, even for such a limited use.

Since PSLs cannot be used to counter Combat Maneuver penalties, is there any other cheap way to address those penalties? How about for other situations like grabbing/being grabbed, etc.?

I see Defense Maneuver basically counters certain situational penalties, but are there any other examples of PSL alternatives?

Obviously one can buy regular combat skill levels, but I am looking for other alternatives, especially since those get halved as well, IIRC, e.g., in grabs, surprised, etc.?

Could one buy regular skill levels and apply limitations so that they only work for certain conditions (e.g., grabbing/grabbed, or move-by/move-through, etc.)?