Force

Re: Creation philosophy

I would have used 17 OCV/15 DCV to reflect the Sacrifice Strike bonuses and penalties (+1/-2) and 3 movement Powers (TP is essentially meaningless since it's slower than her Running Half Move), but we're quibbling over trivia at this point. And as my buddy Blackjack observed, we're not just about combat. Any evaluation of a character's overall usefulness and effectiveness in any campaign has to take in factors like non-combat Skills.

 

As to your last question, I guess I'd have to ask "Reflective of what?" I've admitted she's a good combatant; but she's certainly not unbalanced in our campaign. I don't doubt your brick could beat her. Heck, I thought that MA you posted early in this thread (Black Lotus?) would give her a darn good fight (SPD 7, 38 DEX IIRC) and he was loaded with non-combat Skills. I guess since your brick could beat Zl'f, he must be unbalanced too, at least according to some.

I thought the only thing unbalancing was the 43dex/9spd/30" movement. However that was only a glance at her character sheet.

Turns out she might have 30" of movment, but she can't do much else with her mp.

This 'guide' that I use (and others) is only to compare the effectiveness of the character in combat as wrote up on the sheet. I don't know what formula's are actually used and I wish I could remember who wrote it.

I know that my brick could beat you (even tho I have not listed his character sheet in this thread), he is a total combat monster. I certainly wouldn't argue that.

I don't know how my ma would handle Z'lf. She is so damn fast! But it would be a good fight according to the calculator, as I believe it would and should be. I think Z'lf would have the edge due to a 9spd, but dice can be kinda tricky.

Re: Creation philosophy

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin' date=' she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.[/quote']

 

Exactly! Which is why I usually run characters thru this page at creation. I am just very, very rusty in using it.

 

Practice makes perfect.

Re: Creation philosophy

Oops! YOu're right; my bad. I had incorrectly assumed that, like most of the other Power numbers, it was based on the total Active Points of the Regeneration, not on the BODY regenerated per time interval.

 

Silly me for assuming the program would be consistent.

Don't worry.

I DID THE EXACT SAME THING.

Like I said. Work with the program. Run multiple characters thru it. See how the numbers come out BEFORE you so off-handedly dismiss it.

Unfortunately, I don't remember who actually created it.

Re: Creation philosophy

Ok. Did another spin with that CR html script someone wrote along time ago.

Here is the numbers and here is what I used to obtain them.

OR=46 + DR=31 + MR=41. Big mistake I did was on regen.

Total = 118. Like most programs, garbage in garbage out.

I used 16ocv, 16dcv, 10dc, attacks 4 (hth, ma, nnd, eb), 9spd, 10", 4 movement powers (significant leap, run, tp, swim), 12/8 pd/ed, 29 stun, 45 in missile reflect and it should only be 1 bod for the regen.

Now treb, are those numbers now reflective of what your character can do?

And don't dismiss this chart so easily. Like hero, it takes awhile to figure out how to input the data correctly. I have found this a most USEFUL tool in comparing relative combat efficiencies of character from what was put down on paper.

You just have to do it right.

Which means my brick would definitely eat your lunch.

Re: Creation philosophy

Where do you calculate the Combat Rating from Trebuchet?

here:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

It's been a LONG time since I used this. It's been changed quite a bit from the last time I used this.

I think I even inputted Z'lf stats wrong. Especially after it was explained to me that the hth attack listed on the character sheet was not supposed to be usable with her martial arts.

Re: Creation philosophy

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page' date=' and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by [b']40[/b] points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

 

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

 

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

40 pts? It only raised it 2.

Re: Creation philosophy

One conclusion some draw is that character combat efficiency questions are ultimately the domain of each inividual GM; that does not render the discussion pointless.

Sure it does.

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

Opinions don't matter.

Re: Creation philosophy

She does 7d6 + ½ Advantages with the HA, not 9. That's equivalent to 10½ DC's; not much more powerful than her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike maneuver and without the OCV bonus.

 

If I erred in her construction, I'll change it to reflect what I intended.

Ahhh, you are correct and I stand corrected. Don't make any changes to your character just because I was 'nitpicking' (which I wasn't, I was simply going by how I interpreted her build).

Like you stated, opinions don't matter.

As I stated, she is a very dangerous martial artist, as she should be in her campaign. She is slightly overpowered according the the ratings program I use to compare folks, but like you stated even that doesn't matter.

I don't even know why we are continuing this thread. Nothing to be gained by it as everything can be dismissed so easily.

Re: Creation philosophy

No' date=' and that's not what he posted.[/quote']

 

But what he stated was it's up to the campaign and gm.

 

So why even discuss the creation philosophy outlined in the original post?

 

There is no point.

Re: Creation philosophy

I already stated the +4d6 HA doesn't add to Zl'f's MA maneuvers. That's my intention, and if that's wrong as built (I don't believe it is) then I'll adjust the build accordingly.

 

She does 10 DC; 12 DC Pushed. No more, and not with Advantages.

Ok. I was just going by how she was built.

I don't see how she does 10dc with the hth attack tho.

It's 30 active points with 15 str. Should only be 9dc.

That will lower her into the hi 130's range, which is about what a 400pt character should be overall.

At 9dc's she is more of an annoyance to a typical 400pt brick or eb.

Re: Creation philosophy

It's up to the individual GM, not a blanket rule made up by some random guy on the internet.

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

Re: Creation philosophy

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman' date=' only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's [i']Schtick[/i]! The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

 

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

 

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

I don't think anyone is really saying she is too powerful. It's that she is not as weak as she is being portrayed.

Is she invincible? Heck no.

Is she very powerful martial artist? You bet.

Is she unbalanced for her campaign? Doesn't sound like it to me.

And Cap has always been a good litmus test for martial artists.

Re: Creation philosophy

No' date=' she hits for 10 DC [i']unless she Pushes.[/i] And with 9 SPD she doesn't have enough END to Push regularly in combat.

Str=15 is 3dc

Martial strike= 2dc

+3dc Martial arts =3dc

That's 8d6 right?

Add +4d6hth with zero end (from the multipower) and that makes 12d6 right?

Advantages only don't add to martial damage right? You still get to use hth right? Zero end does not add to damage.

I am thinking that this specifically applied to things like AP, Pen, so on and so forth.

Unless I have missed something completely...

Re: Creation philosophy

It's not in the build; it's in the rules. Per 5er' date=' Advantages on HA do not add to martial maneuver damage. The Advantages only modify damage done with her STR. (If she hit for 16 DC, she would hit harder than even our brick.)[/quote']

 

So she still hits for 12dc. I believe that will still lower her OR by 2-3.

 

12dc is still a very powerful attack for 16ocv/16dcv 43dex/9spd.

Re: Creation philosophy

Um' date=' no. Her maximum [i']Pushed[/i] attack is 12 DC's. The Advantages on the HA in her MP do not add to her martial maneuvers' damage, nor can they stack.

 

I doubt that will change the rating much; perhaps lower it by a few points. But rating are irrelevant anyway.

Perhaps you could explain why the hth attack does not add to her martial attack?

I saw nothing in the build that would indicate that.

And like you said about opinions, they don't seem to matter to you at least...

Re: Creation philosophy

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

If it was just a '7d6' attack, I doubt if there would be such an uproar...

Re: Creation philosophy

I ran the figures on Z'lf myself just now.

Here is what I came up with.

OR=51 + DR=49 + MR=41 for a total of 141.

I used a 16 ocv, 16 dcv (based on overall levels used on ocv and martial strike), 14 dc (assuming martial strike with +4hth w/+1/2 var adv in multipower), 5 different types of attack (hth, ma's, nnd, ha, eb), 9 spd, 20" movement, 4 types of movement (significant leap, run, teleport, swimming) 12 pd/ep 8 resistant, 29 stun, 45 pts of missile refelct and 10pts of regen.

These are all based on active points. I guess these 2 questions remain:

Is she balanced for her campaign?

I have no doubt about that. To many people posting here stating she does work in her campaign.

Is she very powerful?

Absolutely no doubt with no reservations.

If she is running in a very powerful campaign she is no doubt balanced. Anything less and she is one of the most powerful characters in the campaign.

edited: should be 14dc, not 17dc. Lowered appropriate ratings.

Re: Creation philosophy

Forget the propaganda, pro or con. Here's the Tale of The Numbers. The reality is I DID make "a properly constructed Champions version" of Steve Rogers. He's a 650-700 CP character who's based on extensive research of the source material for him and some rather intense discussion on these boards regarding his proper design. He is more powerful than the best Sam Bell (or anyone else's) "official" version I could find...

 

...and Z'lf would eat him for breakfast.

 

The CR calculator is correct on that much.

 

Cap's 13" run can't come close to maneuvering well enough to keep up with Z'lf's 30". Z'lf has ~1.5x more actions than Cap does. Cap will never have initiative. Z'lf's MD/MR makes Cap's shield EB a liability to Cap (*throw!* *MR!* *Cap takes 10d6...*). Cap's base CV is 8 while Z'lf's is 14, and really it's effectively 16 fighting Cap, so Z'lf is +6 to +8 , 215/216, to hit Cap while Cap is -6 to -10 (!!), 1/216, to hit Z'lf when Z'lf attacks with MS.

 

In short,

1- Z'lf has complete control over the tactical range of the fight.

2- Z'lf almost alway hits and does damage, Cap almost never does.

3- Z'lf is attacking up to 1.5x more often per turn than Cap can.

Unless Cap gets a lucky shot in, which will likely down Z'lf immediately, Z'lf will consistently trash Cap and make it look while easy doing it.

 

Since Z'lf is considered balanced by MidGuard standards, that means MidGuard is most likely MORE powerful than the "real" MU Avengers.

I don't think that Z'lf would 'beat the crap' out of Cap. Would she win? Probably. However, my Cap has a base CV of 9 (26dex) with at least 4 8pt combat levels and 4 overall levels. Z'lf still gets to dictate the battle with her 43 dex and 9 spd. I am gonna run her numbers thru. I knew her movement score was going to be outrageous, but I want to double check her OR. To determine how effective a character is going to be against someone, I have found it best to compare OR to DR.

Re: Creation philosophy

Interesting. Using that CR calculator on a "30 Str, 35 Con, else Straight 25's" write up of Steve Rogers with 5 SPD, 13" Run, 20/20 PD/ED (10/10 rPD/rED), 63 STUN, 30 CP of Danger Sense, 30 CP of Find Weakness, 50 CP of MD, Combat Sense, and Fast Draw yields

 

CR= OR + DR + MR= 44 + 58.6 + 25 = 127.6

 

A 6 SPD raises that to 130.6

 

So all you folks have characters that will pound The best Homage build of Captain America I could make (and so powerful that people were yelling about some aspects of it) into the ground according to Force1's CR calculator.

 

Clearly, Cap needs some updating to succeed or survive in this "Brave New World" of combat lethality...

 

EDIT: The CR calculator needs to be updated to allow for the AP and Penetrating Ad. It also doesn't deal with a character who can take multiple actions in a phase like Lariat can, nor with AoE or other multiple target attacks. I wonder if the source is available?...

To determine DC of an attack using that calculator, simply take the active points (including all advantage's) and divide by 5.

I didn't write this calculator. I saved the url from a post here on the hero boards. I have found it to be fairly accurate in determining a characters effectiveness.

Re: Creation philosophy

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

 

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

 

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165

According to that page.

 

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

It means she is pretty damn powerful. My 6spd/80str/40def/80stun martial brick's total was about 135 with OR=41 DR=66 MR=27. Most 350-400 point characters should be in the 110ish to 130ish range. Anymore than a 10 point difference in a category (OR/DR/MR) means that your character is either outclassed or outclasses a character in that category.

However, from the write-up posted here she would not like my brick very much. Most MA's don't like fighting bricks. If she did not make a tactical mistake she might be able to take my brick out, but since my def outclasses her offense by so much, she might not be able to do sufficient damage before I connected with her.

What makes her so insanely good, imo, is the fact she has 43 dex/9spd with 30" of movement.

Re: Creation philosophy

And here is a sample of my MA:

Black Lotus

Player: Jerry Ogburn

Total Character Cost: 395

Disadvantage Points: 155

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 40

Total Experience Available: 40

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: Creation philosophy

Run her thru this combat rating system:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

Let's see how she stacks up here.

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Unless it's a very dark campaign, it is very frowned upon in my neck of the woods.

Killing for a superhero should be a matter of absolute last resort.

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

I admit that my +7 Lightning Reflexes in the example above is over the top. I would probably never allow it in any of my games without the player coming up with some extraordinary explanation.

 

To answer your question if you are buying Lighting Reflexes and Combat skill levels to represent someone with a higher DEX than you are right, you should buy the higher DEX.

 

However, that is not what I am doing. The STR example is the best example I can give. Not every Martial Artist has a 30 STR. However, because of training I could see a Martial artist doing 7d6 with a martial punch.

 

Not every NAVY SEAL is a olympic quality gymnist. However, they do have tha ability to hit often and react quickly in combat. That does't mean they have high DEX.

 

If I follow the example that Lightning Reflexes and Combat Skill levels are only bought to represent someone with a higher DEX than you could also say that Martial Arts are only bought to repesent someone with a higher STR.

 

Why buy Martial Arts that add damage from punches or STR to grabs and disarms when you can just buy STR?

 

The reason comes down to Special Effects. No my Martial Artist isn't strong enough to lift mountains, but I have trained to know where and how to hit.

 

No my NAVY SEAL isn't the most Dexterious person on the planet, but through training I have learned how to act/react in combat.

I agree with this assessment. I guess the +7 did throw me off. I do believe that a few levels of Lightning Reflexes along with couple of Combat Skill levels are appropriate to represent training. My whole point was if you are buying lots of them to represent 'abilities', then you should probably buy up your base dex.

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

That is not the way I see it. DEX represents the innate ability of the character. Lightning Reflexes, IMO, represents a character that has trainind in one specific ability or is used to combat and able to think quickly in combat.

 

For example Athletic Gymnist guy with his DEX of 24 gets into a situation in which he is in the middle of a battle. He faces off against the hardened NAVY SEAL with a DEX of 18. Now the NAVY SEAL has bought +7 Lightning Reflexes. This , IMO, represents the fact that the NAVY SEAL has seen combat, is used to it, and understands the flow of it. He knows what is going to happen and can react before the Athletic Gymnist guy can.

 

Does this mean that the NAVY SEAL guy acts quicker than humanly possible? Not IMO. It just means the NAVY SEAL guy nows what to expect far more than the Athletic guy.

 

Let me use STR as an example. If I place a limit of STR 30 on humans and a Martial artist does 7d6 with his Martial Punch I do not feel that he is stronger than humanly possible. It is just that his training and knowledge has allowed him to hit harder. That is the way I see Lightning Reflexes.

I can see this with a limited buy up of Lightning Reflexes. But, IMO, you are buying Lightning Reflexes along with Combat Skill Levels to represent someone with a significantly higher dex, are you not reflecting the justification of a higher dex in and of itself?