Fox1

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

You put rifles at 2d6/2d6+1K. Various ammo types can bump that by +1DC or so at an appropriate range. You also use hit locations' date=' and impairing/disabling rules, although you do not use cumulative BODY damage. How do these rules combine to make rifles less powerful than as presented in the rules? Is the non-cumulative BODY the key? On the surface it would seem they do the same amount of damage, are applied to hit locations normally, and cause impairing/disabling wounds with the same frequency.[/quote']

 

You're correct. The non-cumulative BODY is the key, especially in games with Auto-fire.

 

Consider a not very uncommon occurance with a M16 vs. a BODY 10 victim. A good roll can cause all the shots from a 3 round burst to hit, Let's say the damage rolls were an 9, 5 and 6.

 

Under the standard HERO rules, the character is dead. Under mine, he's taken three impairing injuries and has some bleeding problems- but most likely (assuming medical aid with in a couple of turns or so) is in little danger of death.

 

Also helping out in this is the fact that I count bleeding damage on its own individual track (which is cumulative).

 

Depending upon a campaign's individual levels and ratios of resistant/non-resistant defenses, the danger from "a death of a thousand cuts, well two, three, four, five or six..." can be highly significant or not. But I'm certainly far below the death level for a standard HERO no resistant defense campaign.

 

 

 

There are other desirable (for me) effects. A character taking a 8 point hit in the arm with a 7.62x51mm rifle round can duck for (or be knocked down into) cover. He can then take a recovery, bind the wound and return to action.

 

Doing so in standard HERO means he's 2 points away from worrying about dying. Doing it in my game means he only has to worry about a impaired arm and being down at least the required 8 stun.

 

This alters the dymanics of play greatly, and it's much more common to see the classic action of a wounded hero charging back into battle.

 

 

As as side note, I always assumed that BODY was non-cumulative in HERO even before I started my work on firearms. It was years before someone pointed out that the rules were different.

 

I can't imagine running the with with cumulative BODY...

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

why is it "str min doesn't add to damage"? it normally doesn't for an RKA

The FAQ attempts to answer this, and does it very badly, i.e. it was based upon an original concept of killing attack that never made it into the rules others.

Think of it like this (in designer thoughts):

"Killing Attack gives 1d6 per 15 points, if they want a ranged version of it- tack on usable at Range. Hmm, STR shouldn't add, lets make that a limit...

That's cool, let's work on other things.

You know a thought occurs, maybe it would be better if we define two types of KA, one ranged and one not. STR wouldn't normally work with the Ranged version... Yeah, that's better.

Not really sure if that was the exact thought process, but it how the FAQ made it sound.

Whatever the truth, it's a error that they never corrected. Best option is to house rule it away.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

You know, it seems to me that firearms with an Autofire rate of 10 should have some sort of default OCV bonus. Getting up to those levels is hard uness you fire upon a very large object....

Dark Champions brings back the old rule of +1 OCV per 5 shots in Autofire as an option.

Re: Firearms granularity

Having stats for an entire category of weapons makes a lot of sense to me' date=' especially in Hero; a +1 on the attack roll or +1 DC just feels like a pretty large difference in the system. Too large to use in differentiating one light pistol from another, for example. That's my take, anyway.[/quote']

 

I believe this problem in HERO was the whole reason the original poster created the thread.

 

For myself it's a good thing that one can show the damage differences between weapons with more than just a DC difference, if I hadn't developed my house rules for such- I wouldn't be playing HERO today.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Given that the DCs of a firearm can be up to doubled using CSLs' date=' Haymakers, and even Martial Maneuvers if you are so generous, I am pretty happy with the tables in the main book. If I were to run a modern game I might even assign extra DCs instead of or in addition to OCV bonuses for surprise maneuvers, "critical hits," and the like..[/quote']

 

I don't allow this use of CSL in my games, and for much the same reason I've so greatly restricted the player's ability to modify his BODY stat.

 

In addition (and even more important), this suggestion like the others made in this thread to use HERO's optional rules to bring pistols up to reasonable levels ignores the overwhelming effect on Rifles as they are raised to unrealistic and unmanage levels of damage.

 

Lastly, I need the weapons to be dangerous in the hands of anyone. A lucky hit in real life can injure or kill just as well as the most carefully aimed shot. I refuse to state that by default only the most skill shooters can somehow magically manage the upper end of weapon damage in any game I play.

 

If players in my game wish to aim better to cause more damage, the hit location rules are there for them.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

You might try being a little respectful of others even when you think they are full of it' date=' you will go farther in life. Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open, now you even have me quoting hippy bumper stickers [/quote']

 

I'm sorry; it is not an indication of an open mind to accept incorrect information and plainly wrong physic formulas, no matter how committed the person offering them is. V*Cross-Sectional Density <> 1/2*M*V^2 by any measure, and I'm afraid the first is the correct forumula for firearm penetration and not the latter.

 

If it helps, I'm sure whatever rules you're using for your games work to your taste. But that's the best I can do.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

('Course' date=' we should probably start a new thread on this if we're gonna keep discussing it. Myself, though, I'm gonna be away from computer for a day or two, so I can't contribute.)[/quote']

 

When you get back, kick off the thread. I'll have something solid by then.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

BTW I see there was a post made while I hit the quote button, so Cross sectional density is basically just a fancy way of saying two bullets of equal size and weight which is what I said in the first place.

I'm sorry, cross-sectional density does not mean equal size and weight.

energy is directly related to a bullets penetration, simply put assuming all things are equal 2 bullets of the same diameter, one with 1000 ft/lbs behind it and the other with 2000 ft/lbs behind it you probably have a pretty good idea of which one is going to perform better (one is going to go about 2x as deep as the other)

At this point, I almost... sadden to do this.

Please note the following article:

http://www.practical-defense.com/research/energy.pdf

Near the top of page two in reference to wound size and penetration:

"Energy does not accurately correlate with either of these factors . Penetration is a linear function of velocity and cross-sectional density of the bullet"

The whole article is worth reading, although it screw up badly at one point (which is way I don't reference it at my website).

By the way, this is the exact function I use to determine the penetration values at my website.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

Hey Fox' date=' what do you think the PER Mod should be for this? ROFL![/quote']

 

It counts as "visible to those who are blind as a bat in one eye and can't see out of the other"

 

More serious, I think Bulky already handles it (as it does the two-handed requirement).

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Basically? You could stand to be more civil. I'm taking my lumps here - I made errors' date=' and will cop to them. But damn, dude. You'd generate a lot better feeling towards your views if you explained yourself fully and weren't quite so much of a pedant.[/quote']

 

You're correct.

 

 

As for systems, I'm gonna stick with my synthesising of house rules, striking for a balance of realism vs what I basically want from a game.

 

I've basically done the same. All the work on my website was only a small degree of movement toward realism, it was still balanced by gaming needs.

 

My goal was to remove the most unrealistic elements from HERO while still playing an action-adventure genre game, not to make a perfectly realistic simulation.

 

 

What I'd kill for, however, is a good system of rapid/autofire, which balanced recoil vs str vs follow-up shots.

 

I'm giving that consideration now.

 

Something missing from my house rules is the fact that low recoiling weapons are much easier to handle in rapid fire. So I'm playing with various ideas as to how to address it without overbalancing HERO.

 

The first pass will likely find it's way to the website within a few days.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

energy is directly related to a bullets penetration

Badly stated.

As a recent mythbusters graphically showed, increasing energy can actually result in reduced penetration. You can't really know the outcome unless you consider bullet construction and the target as well as the velocity.

Toadmaster also fails to mention cross-sectional density, which has major importance for penetration. I however in my rules do not.

Fox1's own website talks about how important penetration is, odd that the most easily obtained, measurable, repeatable value is dismissed by him.

Not true.

While the base damage is rightfully determined by the size of the bullet, low penetration will result in that damage value being reduced. Meanwhile high penetration will result in improved performance vs. armor.

Thus as example, the .45 ACP does more damage but takes greater reduction from encountered armor while the 9mm (same KE level) does less damage but takes significantly less of a reduction from encountered armor. Meanwhile the .380 ACP loses a DC because its penetration value is too low to meet the threshold.

The subject isn't ignored at all. It's just not used directly to determine base damage.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

I need help calculating the STR Minimum for a 30-lb' date=' 0.75-meter-long weapon. I will of course also be including OAF Bulky.[/quote']

 

At full rate of fire?

 

Assuming the 240 lbs of recoil energy noted on one website is correct, it would take a STR of 26 under my house rules.

 

But there's a problem with that. Those assume a recoil impulse, not a continuous pressure as this gun would give. Frankly, your guess is as good as mine.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

I'm going to keep the Autofire simply because it shows that a hand-held minigun could easily walk across a target. The better the attack roll' date=' the tighter an area you confined your walking to -- and trust me, all automatic weapons bounce and jiggle. It also slightly decreases the lethality of this weapon.[/quote']

 

There are some interesting effects of combing autofire and AoE as I recall. It may not work out for you.

 

Hmm, first glance looks like they removed those...

 

How about mobile on the AoE, maybe with a limit to represent walking the fire across an area?

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

Would you allow Reduced Penetration to be bought double-strength (attacks are divided by 1/4) for -1/2 instead of -1/4? To put it another way' date=' the attack's penetration ability is quartered, instead of merely halved.[/quote']

 

I would.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

Huge RoFs are a problem in Hero. If anyone has a very realistic/ reasonable/ fun solution that doesn't mainly depend upon house rules (or even if they do)' date=' please tell me.[/quote']

 

I really only use two options right now.

 

The linked gun solution for the multi-barrel systems I referenced above, and the hyper-burst solution I use for weapons like the G-11 and AK-94 with have around a 2000 round per minute 2 or 3 shot burst setting.

 

You should have already seen the G-11 version on my website, remember to check the notes. It's basically a CSL, +1 only to counter the autofire modifier.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Those who have seen it - is it useful? (as opposed to "realistic")... frankly the discussion of kinetic energy and energy transfer is partially Greek to me...

Sadly it's a KE based product, so I have no use for it of any kind. HERO and a good reference book does as well.

Now GURPS vehicles...

That I'm think I'm falling in love with.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

*In one case' date=' it seems as if he's taking commentary intended only for pistols (that the only important elements are wound placement, penetration depth and width of the bullet) and applying them across the board.[/quote']

 

Misrepresented, one of the sources speaks directly to high velocity rifle effects, and comes to the same conclusion as pistols with the exception of fragmentation, which we'll get to in a moment.

 

 

*He deals briefly with the issue of tumbling, saying it's unrelible. Perhaps most systems are unrealistic for including tumbling in all damage at all ranges... but then Fox1 ignores tumbling altogether.

 

Inu failed to read the entire site, or even the notes on the weapon charts.

 

Bullet flip (not tumbling, that's a incorrect term actually) and fragmentation are covered under the link for Ammunition Types and are directly referenced by the weapons that take advantage of this effect.

 

 

Some have been touched on, like Str Min. I find it difficult to accept that a submachinegun firing at full auto would have so low a Str min compared to a pistol of even lighter calibre.

 

This misconception is my fault in part. The STR Min given are of course for single shot function.

 

An old rule in HERO applied a +1 STR modifier for each additional shot after the first, I believe it has been moved in 5th edition to an optional rule in Dark Champions concerning recoil. I haven't taken the time to place this on the website as a house rule as of yet, but it is coming likely in a slightly modified form.

 

 

I see we're out of Inu's points.

 

Except this one:

 

 

So I say that his house rules are not as realistic as he might like. They certainly do not give him clearance to slam all the views of others who offer alternate routes to realism.

 

My 'slams' are only given to those who insist on presenting mathmatical impossiblities and/or proven faulty science as if it were fact. And do so without providing online sources or in the case of a link to a single book- quotes from those sources.

 

Anyone rolling out that KE nonsense or spouting that the games optional rules can achieve a mathematical impossibility (i.e. increasing the HERO value pistol lethality without vastly increasing HERO value rifle lethality to unreasoned levels), all the while not offering any counter evidence- frankly are not people who should be handled with kid gloves.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

so what the point of stating a real weapon that, is made redundant by game mechanics.

Well, it's not by the mechanics he's using. He's upping the damage to represent multiple bullets hitting.

Nor was it redundant by my suggested mechanics. Five shots would hit for every 'one hit' the game mechanics allowed.

I think the whole idea is to look for ways to model it, and make sure it's not pointless.

Re: An idea on making the system a bit more dangerous

I am not going to be running one right now' date=' but I was going to just run this past Herodom. What I was looking for idea's.[/quote']

 

Well you got some.

 

I'm going to side with the others. Just raise the campaign caps, pehaps lower Body and Stun caps. Adjust total points to taste afterwards.

 

I'm not big on changing point costs.

Re: Since guns are a hot topic...

They're easy.

The rate of fire can be handled by building them just as they are- 1 gun with additional guns bought linked to it and fired in a multiple power attack. The rules may object to this, but that can be waved. This allows you to get multiple hits without reaching into unreasonable numbers.

Another option is to buy CSL only to counter auto-fire modifiers and jack up the rof for Auto-fire to silly levels.

A more interesting use of this techology IMO is for law enforcement. A pistol class weapon with each barrel loaded with different Ammo and a selector that determines which is fired.

Think a real world Judge Dread Law Giver. You could switch in a flash between lethal, non-lethal and something else (marker, explosive, etc) with a three barrel gun.

Basically a multi-power.

I believe reloading these things is the same as basically replacing the barrels. So there should be limit addition there.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

Considering that a player can't use it to attack every Segment of every Turn' date=' I think I have that covered. [/quote']

 

Hmm....

 

Given the movie source, it really should attack every segment....

 

Pehaps a AE, continuous attack of some type as an option? You could put it in a multi-power.

Re: An idea on making the system a bit more dangerous

Also I wanted to make High DC C's without lot's of extra points' date=' plus making Str's effectiveness more, lifting/throwing etc.[/quote']

 

Well you're there if that's what you want. The caps you set will be the important thing as far as control.

 

A couple of hints about how a high damage, low defense system has affected other gaming groups:

 

Some have moved more towards ambushing foes rather than fighting them up front. Your game my resemble a contest of assassins more than the story of heroes. This may be what you want.

 

Other groups have attempted to avoid combat completely unless there was no other option. Again, this may be what you want.

 

Be ready to deal more with the game modifiers if you're still allowing them. People will seek range and cover more than they would in a tactical game- assuming they understand tactics.

 

Stuff like that.

 

Good luck.

Re: An idea on making the system a bit more dangerous

Well I was wanting to make the civilian body count higher' date=' and would set a limit on Def's[/quote']

 

Ah, just civilians then. It would certainly work for that.

 

I take it you're avoiding the use of the impair/disable rules...

 

Another option is to not adjust damage classes and point costs at all, but drop Civilian stun and body to taste. Say 4 BODY and 10 Stun? That will result in most mid-range guns having a 2/3 chance of a kill in a single shot.

 

Your campaign caps should control the relative offense/def for players and the like.

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

The recoil on those things are beyond belief you know, 240 lbs according to one source (and they may have low balled it). Makes it uncontrollable as a hand held weapon.

But it is fun...

How to do the damage is the thing.

Consider the following:

Barrel One: 2d6 RKA, Autofire 10.

Barrels two-five (virtual barrels to keep the rof correct, I think the original had six?): 2d6 RKA, linked to Barrel One

That would chain saw stuff nicely, but keep it from penetrating stuff it really shouldn't.

BTW: Useful website for this subject: http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm

Re: An idea on making the system a bit more dangerous

Idea's on this.

Well..

You've reduced the cost of offensive powers in relation to defensive ones. But that doesn't really control how people spend their points. I haven't looked at it in detail, but I would think that the gain in points spent offensively to reach your campaign's damage cap would just be spent on defenses.

Perhaps I'm unclear as to what you're trying to do?