Fox1

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

To all those who have responded to my "do your research or your opinion carries no weight" post: please cite your sources so that I can check them. Fox1 cites his sources on his website' date=' and I am willing to check your sources, as well. You haven't named any yet, though, so I can't go and see for myself -- simply saying you've done research isn't enough. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.[/quote']

 

Excellent idea. Be careful of the dating if anyone takes you up on your offer.

 

 

 

Let me give you a little brief history so that you understand what's behind my warning.

 

Serious study of firearms and wound ballistics took off at the end of the 19th century and was basically completed (for the weapons of the time) in the early 20th by such greats as Theodor Kocher and General Hatcher to name a couple of men whose influence far outlive their own lives.

 

Things were rather settled until the 1950s, at this point a number of designers and gun writers appeared who championed the idea of very small high velocity bullets as improvement of the breed. One could almost say the era was kicked of by the .357 mag and .270 Winchester.

 

In the sixties the development of the M16 further the trend athough actual understanding of how it managed to create the wounds it did wouldn't become complete for decades.

 

The cult of velocity (or KE) being the end all in firearm design was on a roll.

 

The final seal was locked into place by researchers (including Bruchey WJ Jr.) working for the FBI attempting to determine the best weapons for law enforcement. Firing weapons into gelatin blocs, they measured what they thought was the most significant element of 'stopping power', the temporary wound cavity upon which they based the rating system called the Relative Incapacitation Index.

 

With an official government stamp on it, it appeared to many that a new era of firearms knowledge had dawned. The trickle to 9mm and other small but high KE value weapons turned into a waterfall.

 

By the time of the first modern era rpgs, the 'value' of KE was a given to anyone doing research on the subject (and willing to ignore older sources in favor of new). Games ranging from GURPS, Morrow Project, Champions, and Phoenix Command all based their in-game firearm values on it.

 

Things starting falling apart in the latter half of the 1980s. Events such as the famous FBI Miami Shootout caused a re-examination of the whole concept of wound ballistics.

 

Work by a number of people (M.L. Fackler, M.D, working for the Letterman Army Institute of Research is perhaps THE name in the field) revealed the errors of the RII methods. Oddly enough, the resulting work showed that the original concepts developed pre-1950 were still highly valid.

 

Since 1986 all further creditable work in this field has supported Dr. Fackler. I know of no study or research that credits KE as the primary factor in wound determination.

 

That said, there was some value in the rush to high velocity weapons- not in wounding as such, but in flatter shooting weapons. Add in advances in bullet design (some by near accident as in the case of the M-16's .223 round), and effective low recoiling weapons have appeared. There's typically always some good with the bad.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

I've been part of gun discussions online with Kevin Dockery' date=' an actual published verifiable "expert" on the subject and also RPG designer (The Morrow Project), [/quote']

 

Pity his KE views were discredited in the mid to late 80s. To be fair to him, he was in good company in his errors at the time.

 

I say 'views' because I can not find any reference to him as anything other than a soldier, writer, gunsmith and historian, none of which makes him a verifiable expert on the subject of wound ballistics unlike the sources I quote on my website.

 

You wouldn't per chance have anything more recent to brag about than stuff done more than twenty years ago?

 

Hopefully there might be something useful to come out of this but since you the original poster seem to be taking the side of the one who slammed your post I don't really see the point anymore.

 

Perhaps he's been listening and judging the debate on its merits.

 

Besides, I didn't slam him.

Re: Military HERO

Ya' date=' but how out of date is that?[/quote']

 

That fine book was published in 1986.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

My post was in reply to the implied suggestion that .50 handgun in HERO was somehow insufficient at stopping a Char 10 normal.

No one made such a claim. Black Lotus did state he wanted more of difference between a .22 and and .50 AE, but that isn't anything like the strawman you were tiltling at.

How do the current rules make small calibur rifles into instant death machines?

Use the offical optional rules needed to make a .22 LR (1d6-1K in HERO) the 95% instant kill change desired by Black Lotus. Reduce that to 70% because I feel it was overstated.

Now apply those rules consistently.

What is the instant kill chance of a little .223 out of a M16 (2d6K in HERO) with those rules in place?

Don't even bother with a head hit. The .223 is doing 280% of the average damage and doesn't need the x2 head modifier.

Come on people, this isn't rocket science.

Just about everyone I've run games for seem to like them, so I must be doing something right.

People like different things in different games. More people like D20 than like HERO, is that a reason to claim everyone should use D20?

I merely pointed out that *I* think the Hero rules do a fine job of simulating dramatic reality when it comes to small arms and their effects on people. Its my opinion, I'm entittled to it and I don't deserve to be attacked for it. Neither does anyone else.

"Dramatic Reality" is *NOT* the question before us. Actual reality (or rather the degree of closeness to actural reality) is.

If you had only pointed out that you like how the current rules *play*, I would have no reason to do other than let you have your opinion. If that is your *only* claim at this point- I wish you the best of luck in playing the game as you see fit.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

The problem with this is you don't know who has or had not done the research.)

A small amount of the research I have done is up on my website for all to see. So far I've seen nothing from anyone else.

If I felt the need to add more "realistic" rules for small arms fire to my games, I would heavily research it before doing so. I simply do not feel the need to do so at this time)

And yet you feel you can agrue with someone who has. You do realize that you just proved my point for me don't you?

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Really' date=' so the fact that there are strmin mods for position, braced / set, 2 hands etc has nothing to do with how strmin is used with weapons, interesting, I guess they were just random thoughts. [/quote']

 

Those modifiers, like many things concerning HERO's firearm rules- are plainly wrong in reference to the subject at hand.

Re: Firearms granularity

Really so which one won' date=' looks to me like both are still alive and kicking with 9mm remaining a popular military and police handgun but .45 hanging on showing up in the hands of elite forces, of course there is the .40 for people who can't make up their mind.[/quote']

 

The rule is simple, use the most (i.e. largest caliber that meets min. penetration requirements) weapon that you can comfortable fire.

 

Not everyone can handled a .45, not everyone can handle a .40 S&W. Almost anyone can handle the wimpy 9mm.

 

No single creditable group states otherwise. Not the FBI, not the IBW, not the US military.

 

Currently use of 9mm continues mostly due to expense of changing weapons, a percieved need to provide weapons usable by small frame men and women, and in some cases- political agreement.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

He has a good point' date=' the fact you don't agree doesn't make it BS, STRMIN includes many things including weight and general awkwardness, why shouldn't it consider body mechanics. [/quote']

 

Because it doesn't.

 

He's point was based upon firing postures, and the primary effect of firing postures is not a matter of any form of strength, but rather increasing fine weapon control- factors that matter with any weapon completely independent of weight, size or recoil. Even the biggest and mightest of men will go to two-handed or prone or other solid firing posture when shooting for best result.

 

In short, his point was like saying "Look, bright lights to the east!, take a -3 to the STR Min".

 

Right... sure... whatever.

 

Btw, neither HERO nor my house rules take firing postures into account correctly. In my case its because it would result in a very non-action movie approach to combat. HERO's reason is unknown to me (I would hope it was the same).

 

You could probably have a more productive discussion if you didn't insult all who suggested ideas different from yours.

 

I wouldn't insult people who kept up with modern research on the subject.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

You seem to feel that it should be obvious, while I have actually provided data to support my position, whether you accept it or not.

I've seen no data from you.

Re: Firearms granularity

As far as being backed by every creditable research group that is unlikely' date=' its hard to find two that agree, the .45 vs 9mm debate has been raging since at least 1911 and shows no sigh of stopping. [/quote']

 

It has stopped everywhere but internet boards where people such as yourself can still be found clinging to discredited ideas.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Please do not call me ignorant' date=' stupid, or close-minded. I am being extremely civil and I want to know what you know. Please share, but don't be unfriendly. Please.[/quote']

 

There really isn't anything more to be said to a person who thinks the result of using the full impair/disable rules as given in the rulebook on 8 body targets with the rifle/pistol damages in the game is realistic.

 

There is no further reason to continue the exchange. It's like running into someone who insists that E=MC instead of E=MC^2.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

This isn't even an optional rule, but the standard ones. How many actually use this to increase the lethality of weapons?

I use the rule, however it seldom comes into play due to the genre style.

I think however if anyone is of the opinion that I specifically wished to increase lethality across the board, they are gravenly mistaken. I took great care to avoid doing that when the system is viewed in total.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Not at all. Have you seen the average person try to fire a gun accurately' date=' even with training?[/quote']

 

I've trained people.

 

I find your logic in this post seriously flawed, mistaking common and given physiological mechanics of the human body governing marksmanship for something related to STR MIN.

 

I’m uncertain at this point if this is just BS you’re throwing to justify the current rules, or true ignorance on your part. I am however becoming more certain that you’re not a person open to reason on this subject.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

But I also think the rules as is do not fail greatly every reality test. That is an overstatement..

Not by a great deal. The use of the necessary offical option rules needed to bring pistols into line with their real world effectives greatly over powers the effectiveness of the rifles presented in the game.

There's no way to avoid that unless the damages of either the pistols or rifles are changed. It's just that simple.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you. You need to do more research.

My suggestion to add AP to rifles isn't all that different, although unarmored pistol shots in your system are more lethal than they are as I suggest them.

I haven't given your own house rules any consideration what so ever. I'm only concerned with the failures of the official rules.

I assume that there are many ways of solving the problem. I considered a number before selecting the method I did and the final selection was of course a matter of taste.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Joe Average is 8 BODY' date=' not 10. [/quote']

 

I will never use Stat 8 to represent a typical combatant. Such characters flat out lack the required STR to even use common weapons in the game. They are non-functional.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

I do agree that your work does do what you say it does, but I also agree that the existing rules can work, as I have played them to great effect.

I'm sure the existing rules can be played. But they fail greatly in any reality test.

The use of hit location and the other various rules vastly overstate the effectiveness of rifles, making non-lethal/non-crippling shots far less likely than they are in reality. This is unacceptable to one with my goals.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

I've read your sources' date=' the better of them admit that no-one actually knows what 'reality' is.[/quote']

 

I state the exact same thing on my website, you may have well quoted it back to me. But you left out a important quaification- they don't know the exact details of the reality, but they certainly know a number of highly important generalities.

 

The simple truth is that any system that includes that entire range of those important generalities is better in respect to realism than one which does not.

 

HERO, even with it's optional rules- DOES NOT. My work, even with all its up front admitted failures- DOES.

 

The good or bad of that is left as a decision for the individual. There is a place for highly unrealistic games, and a place for highly realistic ones.

 

But it is complete folly to claim at any point that there is no difference, and can be no difference.

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

You're a crunch maniac. M&M is the last thing in the world that would interest you.

Is that the difference drawing people away from Champions? If so, pity.

Did some searching on the web, there isn't much of a product line, and given how long it's been out that's not a good sign. Only one adventure, a city setting, a gadget book... yawn.

I was hoping for a good line of adventures that I could steal. Oh well.

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

Almost every day on the M&M forum a Champions player shows up saying he has left Champions for M&M.

Really?

I need to take a look at M&M it seems...

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

It is a common thread when making rules "more realistic" to make guns more lethal' date=' they rarely leave a possibility for multiple ineffective hits, [/quote']

 

I'm sorry, but my house rules do indeed leave the possiblity for multiple ineffective hits, and do so far better then the 'more realistic' option rules suggested in the HERO rulebook.

 

One again we have someone talking about something without running the math. It always happens.

 

 

 

it is so long as people understand realism is all relative.

 

Reality is a fixed value, the only thing that varies is peoples like of understanding.

 

Desired game play however is up to the individual.

 

Pity that some people can't tell the difference it seems.

Re: Firearms granularity

And this is probably why all this gun talk is "peculiar" to the non-gun bunnies' date=' you call energy a not very meaningful measure, I consider it fairly important, and I'm sure we could debate it for hours without ever changing the others mind (kind of like Hulk vs Thing debates )[/quote']

 

This is a lot like saying you can convince a flat earther that the world is round. It's a true statement, but it reveals more about the side that has rejected all reputable modern science than it does about the person saying the world is round.

 

I don't care if I convince you. I'm simply content knowing that I'm backed by every creditable research group working on the subject today be it military, law enforcement, or private.

Re: Damage Reduction

Second' date=' now that you're desolid, you have to buy "affects real world" on all of your stuff.[/quote']

 

The 5th edition rulebook suggests that this point can just be waved.

 

So bascially the rules say you have to break the rules to make it reasonably priced. That a excellent marker of the quality of the idea right there.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

So how is what NuSoard is doing 'unfun' or too lethal?

Use the optional rules as Nusoard did, what is the effect on the chance of a lethal hits for any rifle class weapon? I'll give you a hint; it's much higher than it is in reality and vastly out of proportional to handguns.

His solution in no way addresses the problem. He's slamming something without even the most basic clue as to what he's doing or the goals of the person's work he's slamming.

I find that highly objectable.

As for it being unfun, the people who's work he's slamming get to determine that. As one of those people, I will flattly state that I find his 'solution' unfun in the extreme.

Beyond this specific response however, unfun depends upon the specific game group and their specific needs. I've stated in other threads at different times that if I were to run a Film Noir campaign- I'd rule that any hit with any firearm is an automatic kill- because that's how some of my favorite films from that genre work.

So I range from 100% kills to what's up on my website in taste. Quite a range just in myself there. And to bust another myth, my house rules are not more lethal than HERO's. A careful overview would show that they are in fact less lethal in the long run.

Re: Damage Reduction

You see SS, now you're just deliberately pushing my buttons . I was frankly appalled when I noted that this is now canon. I remain appalled, probably for the wrong reasons. If they are going to create a 'Immune to' power then they should do it, not kludge around like this.

I agree, that was a terrible construction. Far too much of this kind of stuff has found its way into HERO.

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

Lets take the HERO version of the .50 Desert Eagle: 2D6+1K

Oh sure. Let's take one of the most powerful handgun characters can put there hands on from the official lists, and then run it with some of the most lethal optional rules in the game.

We don't care about more normal weapons, we don't care about how the use of those optional rules will make even the smallest of the rifle class weapons into instant death machines. Nope, we don't care about any of that.

All we're trying to do is prove a point. Heaven forbid if we actually try to run a fun game instead.

So with those rules in effect, I don't see the need to increase the damage into the stratosphere. Why? Because it changes the interacation of such weapons to inanimate objects such as Bank Vaults and Armored Jeeps.

I don't think you've even looked at the suggested changes from my website. If you did, you may be suprised to know that what you're whining about here isn't significantly more possible than it is under HERO.

Look and do some math before you leap.